Opinion of the Contras
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  Opinion of the Contras
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Pages: [1] 2
Poll
Question: What were they?
#1
Terrorists
 
#2
Freedom Fighters
 
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Partisan results

Total Voters: 50

Author Topic: Opinion of the Contras  (Read 1783 times)
Obama-Biden Democrat
Zyzz
Junior Chimp
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« on: May 21, 2015, 05:15:05 PM »

The obvious sane answer here is that they were right wing thugs funded by Reagan. They committed heinous crimes like bombings, rapes and murders for the cause of 'anti communism'.
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Yelnoc
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« Reply #1 on: May 21, 2015, 05:17:00 PM »

Are there people who argue the contras weren't terrorists?
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TDAS04
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« Reply #2 on: May 21, 2015, 05:17:56 PM »

Terrorists and garbage. 
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Obama-Biden Democrat
Zyzz
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« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2015, 05:33:35 PM »

Are there people who argue the contras weren't terrorists?

Maybe ReaganFan and Waltermitty.

Oliver North was seen as a hero by the right wing back in the 1980's for his support for the Contras. Breaking the law and spitting on the constituion obviously meant nothing to them.
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ElectionsGuy
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« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2015, 05:43:59 PM »

Terrorists, but you know, the enemy of my enemy is my friend.
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Vosem
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« Reply #5 on: May 21, 2015, 07:20:14 PM »

Freedom Fighters. That they abused human rights is undeniable, of course, but so is the fact that the regime they were fighting was much worse. There would not be many (certainly not a majority of people) people arguing that mass rapes that took place when the Red Army drove back Nazi Germany makes the force and their struggle as a whole HPs, since the alternative was so much clearly even worse; this is a comparable, if smaller-scale, example.
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Snowstalker Mk. II
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« Reply #6 on: May 21, 2015, 07:42:56 PM »

Freedom Fighters. That they abused human rights is undeniable, of course, but so is the fact that the regime they were fighting was much worse. There would not be many (certainly not a majority of people) people arguing that mass rapes that took place when the Red Army drove back Nazi Germany makes the force and their struggle as a whole HPs, since the alternative was so much clearly even worse; this is a comparable, if smaller-scale, example.

Are you fucking insane?
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Zioneer
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« Reply #7 on: May 21, 2015, 07:56:39 PM »

Freedom Fighters. That they abused human rights is undeniable, of course, but so is the fact that the regime they were fighting was much worse. There would not be many (certainly not a majority of people) people arguing that mass rapes that took place when the Red Army drove back Nazi Germany makes the force and their struggle as a whole HPs, since the alternative was so much clearly even worse; this is a comparable, if smaller-scale, example.

Are you fucking insane?

I don't usually agree with Snowstalker, but in this case...
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Vosem
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« Reply #8 on: May 21, 2015, 07:59:12 PM »

Freedom Fighters. That they abused human rights is undeniable, of course, but so is the fact that the regime they were fighting was much worse. There would not be many (certainly not a majority of people) people arguing that mass rapes that took place when the Red Army drove back Nazi Germany makes the force and their struggle as a whole HPs, since the alternative was so much clearly even worse; this is a comparable, if smaller-scale, example.

Are you fucking insane?

I'm definitely going against a much more overwhelming forum consensus than I'm used to this time, at the least Tongue
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SATW
SunriseAroundTheWorld
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« Reply #9 on: May 21, 2015, 08:10:23 PM »

Siding with Vosem here.
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SWE
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« Reply #10 on: May 21, 2015, 08:21:30 PM »

HPs (not a psychopath)
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Mr. Smith
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« Reply #11 on: May 21, 2015, 08:49:55 PM »


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Atlas Has Shrugged
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« Reply #12 on: May 21, 2015, 08:57:44 PM »

In terms of realpolitik, they weren't the worst people we were supporting at the time. That being said, I am not a fan of the Contras.
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Ebsy
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« Reply #13 on: May 21, 2015, 10:39:27 PM »

Freedom Fighters. That they abused human rights is undeniable, of course, but so is the fact that the regime they were fighting was much worse. There would not be many (certainly not a majority of people) people arguing that mass rapes that took place when the Red Army drove back Nazi Germany makes the force and their struggle as a whole HPs, since the alternative was so much clearly even worse; this is a comparable, if smaller-scale, example.

Are you fucking insane?
Not insane. Just madly in love with Ronald Reagan.
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Vosem
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« Reply #14 on: May 21, 2015, 11:01:11 PM »

Freedom Fighters. That they abused human rights is undeniable, of course, but so is the fact that the regime they were fighting was much worse. There would not be many (certainly not a majority of people) people arguing that mass rapes that took place when the Red Army drove back Nazi Germany makes the force and their struggle as a whole HPs, since the alternative was so much clearly even worse; this is a comparable, if smaller-scale, example.

Are you fucking insane?
Not insane. Just madly in love with Ronald Reagan.

Or at least Violeta Chamorro.
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Velasco
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« Reply #15 on: May 22, 2015, 09:06:53 AM »
« Edited: May 22, 2015, 09:18:56 AM by Velasco »

"Terrorist" isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Really?

Freedom Fighters. That they abused human rights is undeniable, of course, but so is the fact that the regime they were fighting was much worse. There would not be many (certainly not a majority of people) people arguing that mass rapes that took place when the Red Army drove back Nazi Germany makes the force and their struggle as a whole HPs, since the alternative was so much clearly even worse; this is a comparable, if smaller-scale, example.

WTF? I understand that you don't like the Sandinistas, but your claim is utterly moronic. It's not possible to make a comparison between Nicaragua in that period and Cuba or even Venezuela nowadays (the arrest of the mayor of Caracas and other stuff). See, as representative of the legal opposition, your beloved Violeta Chamorro was never disturbed. It's not appropiate to talk about the atrocities of the Red Army in the final stage of WW II to justify the Contra and Nazi Germany to compare it with the FSLN.  That's even more stupid. Stop saying words, plz.
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Velasco
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« Reply #16 on: May 22, 2015, 02:54:04 PM »


If one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter, then clearly the pejorative association with the word is subjective.

Then you are on a slippery slope here. According to your thesis, terrorism of any political sign is justified because, in accordance with the different subjectivities, any terrorist is a freedom fighter. Wonderful.
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Sumner 1868
tara gilesbie
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« Reply #17 on: May 22, 2015, 02:57:05 PM »

Even if you don't believe they should be classified as "terrorists," I can't fathom how you could call them "Freedom Fighters."
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shua
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« Reply #18 on: May 22, 2015, 09:32:30 PM »

The support from the Reagan administration distorts our understanding of them. The Contras were a diverse group, unified only in what they were against.  They certainly were not uniformly right-wing by any measure and drew the largest share of their popular support from (often indigenous) peasants. 
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Velasco
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« Reply #19 on: May 22, 2015, 11:33:07 PM »
« Edited: May 22, 2015, 11:37:50 PM by Velasco »

The support from the Reagan administration distorts our understanding of them. The Contras were a diverse group, unified only in what they were against.  They certainly were not uniformly right-wing by any measure and drew the largest share of their popular support from (often indigenous) peasants.  

The largest group by far (the so called Nicaraguan Democratic Force) was comprised by members of the Somoza's National Guard (notorious criminals) and an organisation of emigrés based in Miami (mainly businessmen and professionals). That force operated in the northern border and had the support of a few Miskito people, but the 'indigenous resistance' mostly vanished by 1987 when the government granted autonomy to that community. There was a smaller group operating from the south led by Edén Pastora, aka Comandante Zero, which was less relevant in what regards the 'military operations'. Check Psychological Operations in Guerrilla Warfare.

The Contras were tied to drug traffickers, according to this:

http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB2/nsaebb2.htm

However, that is of little importance. Every terrorist is a freedom fighter, according to some.
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jfern
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« Reply #20 on: May 22, 2015, 11:47:47 PM »

Secretly selling weapons to Iran to fund terrorists = good
Publicly negotiating a peace deal with Iran that will help fight against terrorism = bad
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shua
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« Reply #21 on: May 23, 2015, 12:04:25 AM »

The support from the Reagan administration distorts our understanding of them. The Contras were a diverse group, unified only in what they were against.  They certainly were not uniformly right-wing by any measure and drew the largest share of their popular support from (often indigenous) peasants.  

The largest group by far (the so called Nicaraguan Democratic Force) was comprised by members of the Somoza's National Guard (notorious criminals) and an organisation of emigrés based in Miami (mainly businessmen and professionals). That force operated in the northern border and had the support of a few Miskito people, but the 'indigenous resistance' mostly vanished by 1987 when the government granted autonomy to that community. There was a smaller group operating from the south led by Edén Pastora, aka Comandante Zero, which was less relevant in what regards the 'military operations'. Check Psychological Operations in Guerrilla Warfare.

The Contras were tied to drug traffickers, according to this:

http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB2/nsaebb2.htm

However, that is of little importance. Every terrorist is a freedom fighter, according to some.

FDN was formed through an alliance encouraged by the US between the Somoza Guard and MILPAS - a Sandanista breakaway group that gathered its support among peasants from the mountain region. The latter group were far more numerous.
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Velasco
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« Reply #22 on: May 23, 2015, 01:59:08 AM »

FDN was formed through an alliance encouraged by the US between the Somoza Guard and MILPAS - a Sandanista breakaway group that gathered its support among peasants from the mountain region. The latter group were far more numerous.

Oh I forgot that faction led by a certain Tigrillo. I don't know in which sources are you sustaining your claim, but some authors think that the importance of the MILPAs was very very relative. In other words, more important in symbolic and propagandistic terms than in military strength or actual support among peasantry:

From Peasants in Arms by Lynn Horton (Google Books):

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In any case, do you think the Contra struggle had legitimacy as a liberation movement, or was it only a tool to fight a national liberation movement which coincidentally dethroned a bloodthirsty dictator and loyal friend of the USA called Somoza? Do you think that terrorists are "good guys", as long as they are "our guys"?
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TNF
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« Reply #23 on: May 23, 2015, 04:08:25 AM »

For anti-communists, no alliance is too untenable and no ally too disgusting. So it isn't really surprising that Vosem and SunriseAroundtheWorld would support these butchers; after all, what's a little butchery compared to the large scale butchery of the capitalism system that the Contras came into being to uphold in Nicaragua? So long as the fatcats get to make a profit, who cares about how many peasants get massacred, amirite?
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Gustaf
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« Reply #24 on: May 23, 2015, 04:58:39 AM »

For anti-communists, no alliance is too untenable and no ally too disgusting. So it isn't really surprising that Vosem and SunriseAroundtheWorld would support these butchers; after all, what's a little butchery compared to the large scale butchery of the capitalism system that the Contras came into being to uphold in Nicaragua? So long as the fatcats get to make a profit, who cares about how many peasants get massacred, amirite?

Don't act as if you're suddenly opposed to murdering innocent people. Just because you want to slaughter a different subset of a population you aren't suddenly some beacon of morality.
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