United Kingdom Referendum on European Union Membership

[rob in cal]

   How has the leave side addressed the issue of British citizens losing EU rights to retire in southern Europe without having to get a special non-EU citizen residence permit? I would think this would be an appealing argument for the remain side to appeal to older-middle aged voters.

[parochial boy]

   How has the leave side addressed the issue of British citizens losing EU rights to retire in southern Europe without having to get a special non-EU citizen residence permit? I would think this would be an appealing argument for the remain side to appeal to older-middle aged voters.

No, at this point, the debate has largely come down to the Leave side repeating "Take back control! Immigration!" and the remain side repeating "The economy the economy the economy."

I think any subtlety in the debate died along time ago.

No-one seems to have cottoned on to the fact the the leave side are now claiming that if EU immigration is reduced, then there can be more immigration from the rest of the world, even though non-EU migration is actually higher then EU migration.

[ChrisDR68]

How has the leave side addressed the issue of British citizens losing EU rights to retire in southern Europe without having to get a special non-EU citizen residence permit? I would think this would be an appealing argument for the remain side to appeal to older-middle aged voters.

Cameron prefers trying to scare the older population into voting Remain by stating their pensions would be at risk if Brexit happens.

There's nothing this idiot won't say in order to try to win this referendum.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/11/brexit-axe-state-pensions-david-cameron-nhs-cold-reality

[jaichind]

High Anxiety Over Brexit Survey Crashes U.K. Pollster’s Site

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-06-13/high-anxiety-over-brexit-survey-crashes-u-k-pollster-s-website

[ingemann]

How has the leave side addressed the issue of British citizens losing EU rights to retire in southern Europe without having to get a special non-EU citizen residence permit? I would think this would be an appealing argument for the remain side to appeal to older-middle aged voters.

Cameron prefers trying to scare the older population into voting Remain by stating their pensions would be at risk if Brexit happens.

There's nothing this idiot won't say in order to try to win this referendum.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/11/brexit-axe-state-pensions-david-cameron-nhs-cold-reality

It's entire up to the British parliament whether those things happens, no matter if it become a Yay or a Nay. So don't see this as a hollow warning of doom, you should instead see it as the threat it is.

[jaichind]

New Guardian/ICM has it 53/47 for leave.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

What are the figures with undecideds?

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Online poll full figures: 49/44

The phone poll is certain to vote only (which explains the low undecideds figure). For everyone it's 46 L 43 R.

[Pandaguineapig]

If the remain campaign wants any shot at this they have to get David Cameron to shut up and let someone else be the figure head for the campaign

[Filuwaúrdjan]

The trouble with Cameron is that he's spent years drumming up the case against the EU in order to please his backbenchers (including over issues so minor that they might as well be fictional) and haggle for his fake 'deal', only now to turn around and argue in favour of it. Which is why it has been completely disastrous to have him as the media focal point of the Remain campaign (it doesn't help, of course, that 'vote this way, David Cameron says so' is not very convincing to Leftish voters who aren't sure if they're going to vote or how they're going to vote).

But anyway, if its a vote to leave it will basically be by accident, if it's a vote to stay in it will be by grudging default. And I think by now we can be sure that the aftermath will be a mess no matter what.

[Pandaguineapig]

It's that and how he has become unhinged and hysterical over it, threatening ww3 and launching a personal attack campaign against Boris Johnson

[Filuwaúrdjan]

All senior Conservatives (the Member for Uxbridge & South Ruislip absolutely included) have sounded at best unhinged during the campaign.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

Incidentally, why have no MEP's bothered to have a role In the campaign? You'd think that the remain campaign would want to show our democratic representatives to people sceptical of the EU as a mysterious distant black box.

[parochial boy]

Incidentally, why have no MEP's bothered to have a role In the campaign? You'd think that the remain campaign would want to show our democratic representatives to people sceptical of the EU as a mysterious distant black box.

Nigel Farage and Dan Hannan have both played a pretty big role.

At which point there is surely something to say about Nigel Farage seeming reluctance to ever attend the parliament he was elected to be a representative in.

[jaichind]

Labour rebels hope to topple Jeremy Corbyn in 24-hour blitz after EU referendum

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/13/labour-rebels-hope-to-topple-jeremy-corbyn-in-24-hour-blitz-afte/

Looks like there might be turmoil on the LAB side as well if Remain loses.  Of course my understanding that in a re-vote of registered and affiliated supporters Corbyn  will win again by a wide margin.

[ag]

How has the leave side addressed the issue of British citizens losing EU rights to retire in southern Europe without having to get a special non-EU citizen residence permit? I would think this would be an appealing argument for the remain side to appeal to older-middle aged voters.

Cameron prefers trying to scare the older population into voting Remain by stating their pensions would be at risk if Brexit happens.

There's nothing this idiot won't say in order to try to win this referendum.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/11/brexit-axe-state-pensions-david-cameron-nhs-cold-reality

Well, he is right. England without the EU (I am not sure, we should be still talking of UK in that case, in a historic sense) wold be a poorer country with higher inflation, and, yes, pensions would be difficult to pay. I guess, they would meet the obligations by inflating, while playing with inflation adjustment numbers to make the real pensions smaller, rather than repudiating them outright.

[ag]

   How has the leave side addressed the issue of British citizens losing EU rights to retire in southern Europe without having to get a special non-EU citizen residence permit? I would think this would be an appealing argument for the remain side to appeal to older-middle aged voters.

They have not. I guess, they will be surpised when grandma shows on their doorstep asking for an attic to stay in.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

Incidentally, why have no MEP's bothered to have a role In the campaign? You'd think that the remain campaign would want to show our democratic representatives to people sceptical of the EU as a mysterious distant black box.

Nigel Farage and Dan Hannan have both played a pretty big role.

At which point there is surely something to say about Nigel Farage seeming reluctance to ever attend the parliament he was elected to be a representative in.

Exactly the problem. Why is Remain not trumpeting EU Remainers bragging out their achievements in parliament on defending British interesta and then saying "if we leave we follow the same rules ... but have no say".seems like a common sense argument if I was a campaigner.

[ingemann]

   How has the leave side addressed the issue of British citizens losing EU rights to retire in southern Europe without having to get a special non-EU citizen residence permit? I would think this would be an appealing argument for the remain side to appeal to older-middle aged voters.

They have not. I guess, they will be surpised when grandma shows on their doorstep asking for an attic to stay in.

Only the poorer English "expats" ergo the ones having a pension under 25 000€ annual will have to leave Spain. Of course many British people will likely say of course Spain will make a exception for them. Personally I doubt it, a interesting aspects you discover if you know any in non-British "expat" community in Spain, is how badly the Spanish talk about the British expats, you usual don't hear the same about the other groups, but for some reason the British is really unpopular. I don't know why, and neither did any of the Danish expats I know who have lived in retirement in Spain.

So people shouldn't be surprised if UK fail to reach a agreement with Spain about their expats.

[ChrisDR68]

All senior Conservatives (the Member for Uxbridge & South Ruislip absolutely included) have sounded at best unhinged during the campaign.

Hardly surprising.

The schism in the Conservative Party happened largely due to the Maastricht Treaty. Ever since then hatreds and resentments have been bubbling under only to be unleashed full scale by this campaign.

Also don't forget UKIP wouldn't exist at all but for that treaty. This whole thing has been 24 years in the making.

Even if Remain win on June 23rd this issue won't be going away anytime soon.

[ChrisDR68]

A source within the remain camp said Downing Street had shifted from being “utterly convinced” of victory in the referendum battle, to a “blind panic”. The source claimed that strategists had convened an emergency meeting on Friday, but a spokesman for Britain Stronger in Europe denied the suggestion.

The sense of panic among remain campaigners has emerged since Labour MPs started reporting negative feedback from voters in their constituencies. One senior figure in the party claimed that politicians all over the country, and particularly in working-class heartlands, had said that they believed their own areas would swing towards Brexit.

Another MP who is active in the remain campaign said the response from some constituents had been alarming, with some accusing politicians of being traitors for campaigning to stay in. He said the most noticeable message was about the idea that Britain could control its borders if it left the EU.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/13/jeremy-corbyn-to-flex-labours-muscles-in-eu-referendum-debate

[Cassius]

Well, Cameron, Osborne and much of the pro-remain camp in the Conservative party (excluding people like Ken Clarke of course, who have always been unabashedly for the EU) are, to quote Alliser Thorne, a bunch of f***ing traitors, in the sense that they've flipped from an strongly eurosceptic position to the classic europhile 'We love the EU, the EU is wonderful and if you want to leave it then you're a zealot/loony/bigot/dolt' position, with some vague promises of 'reform' (whatever that means) thrown in when absolutely necessary. They've essentially turned the agreed stance of the Conservative party (rhetorically at least) over the past 20 years, that we should remain in the EU and do everything we can to weaken it and obstruct any moves to federalism, on its head completely. I mean, given that, as Al said, Cameron has no actual long term strategy for anything, I can quite well see his metamorphosis into a shill for Brussels continuing on after this referendum (assuming that he somehow emerges strengthened from it, which thankfully looks unlikely). He can hardly, after fighting a referendum campaign in which he portrayed the EU as the Kingdom of Heaven, go back to a critical stance re it, especially given that doing so would also further undermine the credibility of his renefauxtiation of Britain's relationship with the EU, although that's basically a dead letter at this point.

I mean, I don't think they're traitors to this country or anything like that (and I don't begrudge genuine europhiles for holding that position), but they are traitors to the the traditional (in the last two decades) Conservative view on Europe, and to the vast majority of the party's membership and a majority of the parliamentary party.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Any Labour source leaking to the Torygraph is probably not someone who's opinions are worth much fwiw.

[Vega]

I hadn't realized that Murdoch was in favour of Brexit. Rather surprising to be honest.

[ChrisDR68]

I hadn't realized that Murdoch was in favour of Brexit. Rather surprising to be honest.

Are you being sarcastic?

His newspapers are almost wholly Eurosceptic and have been for decades. Now it could be that the editors of these newspapers are following their reader's feelings on all things EU rather than leading them.

I generally believe that to be the case.

Giving their readers articles that reinforce attitudes and feelings they already have is probably judged to be good for those paper's circulations.

That's particularly true (in my opinion) of the Daily Mail.