United Kingdom Referendum on European Union Membership

[Filuwaúrdjan]

If it opts for an EEA agreement, why should Britain be excluded from having to sign up to Schengen? It'll effectively walk away from an 'immigration' based referendum having less control over it.

You would not want to be one of the Tory Leavers if that happens would you? Hey everyone, another bone fide case of politicians telling literal lies to the electorate and so soon after the LibDem uni fees debacle!

[afleitch]

If it opts for an EEA agreement, why should Britain be excluded from having to sign up to Schengen? It'll effectively walk away from an 'immigration' based referendum having less control over it.

You would not want to be one of the Tory Leavers if that happens would you? Hey everyone, another bone fide case of politicians telling literal lies to the electorate and so soon after the LibDem uni fees debacle!

I think it would serve voters right, because I think we have to accept that some people no matter how much politicians try and ‘reach’ them or how much they bleat about ‘being ignored’ don’t know what the f-ck they actually want.

‘Immigration’ is such a catch all title it doesn’t mean anything. It allows you to not have to actually vocalise any specifics, either because you don’t know what the problem is, or if you have a specific problem with specific types of people, then it covers up any undercurrent of racism. We know some people don’t like Poles or Bulgarians for the same reason they didn’t like ‘the Paddys’. We know (particularly from the results of this referendum) some second and third generation commonwealth migrants don’t like people in Europe being able to settle easily as it’s not as easy to bring your entire extended family/the entire village over from Pakistan anymore. And some people don’t like ‘Muslims’, in terms of those already settled or coming from commonwealth countries and for some reason think that’s got something to do with the EU.

Now politicians obfuscate this. The media most certainly do. Both built up a concept of the EU that isn’t real; from ‘red tape’ (another catch all that means nothing) to vacuous red top selling pap like ‘bendy bananas’ that was very easy to get the public to vote against.

These sorts of people will glibly speak to TV cameras or post online and regurgitate all these little pellets showing how ’really really smart and man on the street, tell it like it is’ they are. And then when we have a national car crash, the same people will ’blame the politicians, aren’t they all the same’ wearing the same sh-t eating grin without every accepting or internalising that it was their inability to understand what the issue was that caused this mess.

Part of the reason the Lib Dem’s collapsed was because the Lib Dems allowed voters to project whatever they thought onto their party. So people not engaged in politics, not understanding what the Lib Dems stood for, what ideology Nick Clegg espoused and the very fact that teaming up with the Tories was pretty much what they were always going to do toddled off and voted for them to ‘send a message.’ Then they were affronted that the Lib Dems did exactly what they were always going to do and then blamed the Lib Dems for doing exactly what they were going to do simply because it betrayed the idea of the Lib Dems they had in their head.

The public are effectively ‘institutionalised’ and blame politicians for their own mistakes in judgment and the media cheer them on. Because ‘politicians are all the same’. At least until someone gets shot and people start to realise that maybe they are in fact not all the same. At least for a week.

[Clyde1998]

The UK has lost its AAA credit rating with Standard & Poor's: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36644934

[Londoner2016]

I wonder if the unexpected large vote for Brexit in Wales despite to low number of immigrants in Wales has to do with the fairly large number English immigration into Wales over the last couple of decades.  The Brexit vote in Wales might more be a vote for lower number of immigrants into England which in turn will drive down the number of English immigrants into Wales.

There is no "despite". The rural English areas that voted for Leave or tend to vote Ukip have, by and large, substantially lower numbers of immigrants compared to other areas. Take, for instance, Tendring/Clacton, a Ukip stronghold in Essex. There are no EU migrants in Tendring (in 2011, 95% of its population was White British and just a little over one per cent White Other), but there is a high level of deprivation and disaffection. In fact it's officially home to the most deprived area in England, which is east Jaywick.
Likewise, the most neglected areas of Wales voted to overwhelmingly Leave. Not saying being out of EU would make them better off, but that was the voting pattern. West Wales has actually been named the poorest region in of Northern Europe. If you google "poorest and richest regions of the EU", you can also see that 9 out of 10 most poorest regions of north-western Europe are situated in the UK. And all of them (apart from NI) voted leave, most of them by a large margin.

[ChrisDR68]

Ex govenor of the Bank of England Mervyn King interviewed yesterday:

This is the most dispiriting campaign I can recall in my lifetime. Both sides were exaggerating. I think the government has to take responsibilty for setting the tone for that. I do think they said things that were not easy to sustain or support.

It's true there was a great deal of uncertainty about the outcome in economic terms. That would have been enough perhaps to have made their case but they went way beyond that about using precise numbers about how much our living standards might fall. We had all kinds of scare stories and I was travelling around the UK a lot at that time and I was struck by how many people said to me that they didn't like the scaremongering tactics.

They didn't like to be told that if they were to vote to Leave they would be idiots. If you say to someone you're an idiot if you don't agree with me you're not likely to bring them in your direction.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QP7Ps1A107Y

Couldn't agree more with his sentiments

[Tetro Kornbluth]

Going back to the results: Can someone tell me something of interest about St Albans? It gave the fourth best result for REMAIN (62.5%) anywhere in England outside London (EoL). Only Cambridge, Oxford, and Brighton did REMAIN do better. Yet it's not a University town and always considered it a well-off part of the commuter belt, the district as a whole elects two very safe Tory MPs - yet many similar places of that description voted LEAVE. So what's so special about St Albans?

[Hnv1]

Going back to the results: Can someone tell me something of interest about St Albans? It gave the fourth best result for REMAIN (62.5%) anywhere in England outside London (EoL). Only Cambridge, Oxford, and Brighton did REMAIN do better. Yet it's not a University town and always considered it a well-off part of the commuter belt, the district as a whole elects two very safe Tory MPs - yet many similar places of that description voted LEAVE. So what's so special about St Albans?

I was around 3 months ago and noticed large amounts of commuters in the morning to St. Pancras, in business suits and all. So I assume a large amount of finance sector workers with high dependency on a stable economy. Also when you look at election results Labour and LibDem are doing fairly well here and it's not a deprived community. This is not a place of "Essex men" but more like many towns in the South West who voted remain

[afleitch]

Going back to the results: Can someone tell me something of interest about St Albans? It gave the fourth best result for REMAIN (62.5%) anywhere in England outside London (EoL). Only Cambridge, Oxford, and Brighton did REMAIN do better. Yet it's not a University town and always considered it a well-off part of the commuter belt, the district as a whole elects two very safe Tory MPs - yet many similar places of that description voted LEAVE. So what's so special about St Albans?

I don't think there is a definitive answer I'm afraid. The pattern of support in the South East correlates fairly strongly to house prices. The only identifier for St Albans is that's not really a deliberately built London overflow/new town unlike Stevenage, Hemel Hempstead, Harlow etc. Of course it has commuters, but it's less of a 'transplant' town. It's only had a Labour MP 1945-1950 and 1997-2010.

[Хahar 🤔]

Ex govenor of the Bank of England Mervyn King interviewed yesterday:

This is the most dispiriting campaign I can recall in my lifetime. Both sides were exaggerating. I think the government has to take responsibilty for setting the tone for that. I do think they said things that were not easy to sustain or support.

It's true there was a great deal of uncertainty about the outcome in economic terms. That would have been enough perhaps to have made their case but they went way beyond that about using precise numbers about how much our living standards might fall. We had all kinds of scare stories and I was travelling around the UK a lot at that time and I was struck by how many people said to me that they didn't like the scaremongering tactics.

They didn't like to be told that if they were to vote to Leave they would be idiots. If you say to someone you're an idiot if you don't agree with me you're not likely to bring them in your direction.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QP7Ps1A107Y

Couldn't agree more with his sentiments

Please stop propagandizing for Leave; the election is over and regardless I come to this site to discuss election results, not to hear people express their political opinions.

[Zinneke]

If it opts for an EEA agreement, why should Britain be excluded from having to sign up to Schengen? It'll effectively walk away from an 'immigration' based referendum having less control over it.

Oh, it will join Schengen, that is almost a given.

Britain is not a part of Schengen. It still has passport checks and border controlls at the Channel Tunnel for example. Under EU law it accepts the free movement of EU citizens, with all the rights that conveys. That includes the inability to stop an EU citizen to enter their country if they provide the documentation and a whole bunch of other technicalities relating to crime.

You can see why this deebate was dumbed down.

[afleitch]

Some Birmingham ward results

http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/eu-referendum-results-your-area-11536368

[Filuwaúrdjan]

That's really interesting; so the real minority weakness problem for Remain came through turnout as much as anything else. Less votes than cast at the GE in some inner eastern wards. Indications of stronger OUT votes from Indians than Pakistanis.

[YL]

How does New Hall differ from the rest of Sutton Coldfield?

[ag]

If it opts for an EEA agreement, why should Britain be excluded from having to sign up to Schengen? It'll effectively walk away from an 'immigration' based referendum having less control over it.

Oh, it will join Schengen, that is almost a given.

Britain is not a part of Schengen.

I have been to Britain, and I have been to France and I, kind of, know   I mean, I used to be Russian: I had to get those visas. Incidentally, this is, probably, one point on which a middle-class Russian housewife from Voronezh, probably, has a better understanding that many of us here

My point is not that it is in Schengen. My point is that it will be.

[ag]

That includes the inability to stop an EU citizen to enter their country if they provide the documentation and a whole bunch of other technicalities relating to crime.

More precisely, they can stop or deport any EU citizen: but in an individual capacity. It is sufficient to declare security or national interest. They cannot put blanket restrictions against any group, though.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

This is vaguely interesting tweet storm on Brexit and the City of London by journalist Ben Judah: https://twitter.com/b_judah/status/748097437047332864

While it leaps into conspiracy theorizing in one or two moments, it's interesting as it makes clearer what exactly France and Germany would want for negotiating. Would be interested to hear thoughts, especially from ag.

[DavidB.]

Any potential EU endeavors to screw the UK over will only lead to more euroskepticism in EU member states, not less. It's amazing EU officials continue to be in denial about the effectivity of such scare tactics. If Germany and France were to deny the UK a good deal, I would even more like to see the Netherlands leave the EU, not less, because it once again proves that the EU, fundamentally, is all about a quite scary anti-democratic centralization ideology instead of mutual interests.

[Antonio the Sixth]

This is vaguely interesting tweet storm on Brexit and the City of London by journalist Ben Judah: https://twitter.com/b_judah/status/748097437047332864

While it leaps into conspiracy theorizing in one or two moments, it's interesting as it makes clearer what exactly France and Germany would want for negotiating. Would be interested to hear thoughts, especially from ag.

Beautiful!

[Angel of Death]

I see the great spinning has started already, where, if the EU doesn't roll over and allow the UK to have its cake and eat it too, specifically allow them inside the Single Market without freedom of movement, it's "just the Euros being vindictive".
It literally makes no sense for anyone, including Jeremy Hunt, to expect a better deal outside than inside.

[swl]

This is vaguely interesting tweet storm on Brexit and the City of London by journalist Ben Judah: https://twitter.com/b_judah/status/748097437047332864

While it leaps into conspiracy theorizing in one or two moments, it's interesting as it makes clearer what exactly France and Germany would want for negotiating. Would be interested to hear thoughts, especially from ag.

In my opinion it's a normal negotiation process. If you read or listen to what Boris Johnson and Jeremy Hunt said in the last days, you could see that their starting point in the negotiations right now is all good for the UK and unacceptable for the EU. So the EU is also starting from a position that is all good for the EU and unacceptable for the UK.
Then they will have two years to find a middle ground that is somewhat acceptable for everyone.

It's like negotiating a salary during a job interview.

[jaichind]

In the meantime FTSE 100 index is now above the pre-Brexit vote levels.

[2952-0-0]

This is vaguely interesting tweet storm on Brexit and the City of London by journalist Ben Judah: https://twitter.com/b_judah/status/748097437047332864

While it leaps into conspiracy theorizing in one or two moments, it's interesting as it makes clearer what exactly France and Germany would want for negotiating. Would be interested to hear thoughts, especially from ag.

In my opinion it's a normal negotiation process. If you read or listen to what Boris Johnson and Jeremy Hunt said in the last days, you could see that their starting point in the negotiations right now is all good for the UK and unacceptable for the EU. So the EU is also starting from a position that is all good for the EU and unacceptable for the UK.
Then they will have two years to find a middle ground that is somewhat acceptable for everyone.

It's like negotiating a salary during a job interview.

No it's not. The UK isn't seeking an unequal relationship with the EU, which employment inherently is. The UK is seeking a business agreement with Brussels. But, they're starting off by demanding all the benefits of a deal without any obligations in return. That's so incredibly arrogant.

What's even more arrogant is that while they claim to have the mandate of the British people, they are negotiating with the leaders who also have a democratic mandate of 27 other countries. What gives them the right to think their democratic mandate is stronger?

[ag]

I genuinely wouldn't like the UK to join the EEA, and rather focus on models like the (Comprehensive Economic and Trade Agreement) EU-Canadian Trade model. 

If it hurts the city of London, then be it, the UK economy must be restructured to generate wealth from other British regions, 

The UK Government, must focus on trade deals with the USA, commonwealth, South Korea, Japan, China, Brazil, etc.

Brazil is going to be a vey useful economic partner, I am sure. And trade deal with China will be very beneficial for manufacturing.

I mean, I do not expect people to be all experts in econ, but, at least, please think before posting.

Have you checked what share of public revenue is accounted for by financial sector in the UK? How deep a cut in the NHS are you willing to take?

[Fmr President & Senator Polnut]

I genuinely wouldn't like the UK to join the EEA, and rather focus on models like the (Comprehensive Economic and Trade Agreement) EU-Canadian Trade model. 

If it hurts the city of London, then be it, the UK economy must be restructured to generate wealth from other British regions, 

The UK Government, must focus on trade deals with the USA, commonwealth, South Korea, Japan, China, Brazil, etc.

I can tell you the noises from Australia on this... "considering how quickly we were thrown under the bus once you joined the common market... yeah, get stuffed".

More importantly, this idea that economic restructure will happen is basically fantasy. To massively adjust the economic mix of the UK, there needs to be a number of negative things to occur. Wages will have to drop or prices for basic goods will have to spike. In order to build those economies, you'd need to import lower skill workers with lower wage demands.

More likely however is that the City will adjust, unemployment in the rest of the country will go up, noting those MOST dependent on EU engagement were the ones most likely to vote leave... and the low-skill/light manufacturing industries that were core 40 years ago will just be sourced from elsewhere with worse conditions for the workers and no benefit for depressed areas.

[ag]

I genuinely wouldn't like the UK to join the EEA, and rather focus on models like the (Comprehensive Economic and Trade Agreement) EU-Canadian Trade model.  

If it hurts the city of London, then be it, the UK economy must be restructured to generate wealth from other British regions,  

The UK Government, must focus on trade deals with the USA, commonwealth, South Korea, Japan, China, Brazil, etc.

Brazil is going to be a vey useful economic partner, I am sure. And trade deal with China will be very beneficial for manufacturing.

I mean, I do not expect people to be all experts in econ, but, at least, please think before posting.

Have you checked what share of public revenue is accounted for by financial sector in the UK? How deep a cut in the NHS are you willing to take?

Im no expert on economy, but i genuinely believe that this whole single market thing to protect the Banks in london and their city mates , is just the reason why successive UK governments since the 80s led by thatcherism contributed to the deindustrialization to most of the UK manufacturing industries,
focused so much on London and neglected the steel, shipping, railway and other manufacturing industries, which kept entire communities behind since the 80s, which is still evident in the black country, Manchester-liverpool area, north east and glasgow

Its a real travesty that the country that invented the railways, now gave it all away for privatization and we are prohibited under EU law to renationalize the railways, which just shows how the EU works for big businesses and big greedy banks.  

Actually, chances are that, to a non-insignificant degree, whatever manufacturing still exists in England is there because of EU, not despite it. The giant elephant in the room (or, right outside it) is China. It has become the main supplier of everything for everyone worldwide. But within EU Chinese advantage is relatively muted: most of the manufacturing trade there is, actually, between fellow EU/EFTA countries. A big reason for that is, of course, that there is a relative disadvantage for Chinese products in terms of access: trading is much easier within the free trade zone. And that, actually, includes relatively easy British access to European markets.

Note that not only you have suggested that you want to be out of the free trade zone with Europe - you want more trade deals with China. China is much more of a threat to whatever manufacturing there is in the UK than Germany will ever be. So, even in terms of what you yourself consider desirable, your proposal makes exactly no sense. Establishing trade barriers between UK and Europe, while lowering them with China will, actually, make manufacturing in England a lot less competitive, not more. So, what you are proposing is smaller financial sector and smaller manufacturing sector at the same time. I wonder, what is it exactly you are thinking British workers are supposed to do?