United Kingdom Referendum on European Union Membership

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More interestingly, what is the SNP position. Will they propose an independent Scotland in EU referendum?

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More interestingly, what is the SNP position. Will they propose an independent Scotland in EU referendum?

The SNP have made it clear that it would lead to another referendum. Current polls show that it would cause a big enough swing to put the Independence campaign in Scotland over the 50% mark.

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/bookies-slash-odds-scottish-independence-7415275

Is this becoming an issue in England? How much does an average English voter realize this?

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More interestingly, what is the SNP position. Will they propose an independent Scotland in EU referendum?

The SNP have made it clear that it would lead to another referendum. Current polls show that it would cause a big enough swing to put the Independence campaign in Scotland over the 50% mark.

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/bookies-slash-odds-scottish-independence-7415275

Is this becoming an issue in England? How much does an average English voter realize this?

I live in England, and the only things that get reported in the London media is negative to the SNP [and the overall independence movement]; there's very little positive about them. So it's not particularity going down well in England. Although, it won't be used as a campaigning point for the Remain campaign, as I feel more people would move to Leave than move to Remain (if there's any movement at all).

In Scotland, Panelbase polled on a question of: "If a majority of people in the UK voted for the UK to leave the EU, would you support another referendum being held on Scottish independence?". 47% said Yes; 40% No; 13% didn't know. So there is support for the SNP's stance in Scotland; even 20% of those who voted No in the referendum said there should be a second referendum in that situation.

It would be funny, if this turns out to be the real Scottish Independence referendum

BTW, could this destabilise NI? With UK out f EU it is hard to see how the proper controls on the border with the Republic could be avoided, at the very least. That is bound to have an impact.

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Trump has endorsed Brexit. That alone should be reason enough for every decent person to vote to stay.

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Trump has endorsed Brexit. That alone should be reason enough for every decent person to vote to stay.

I don't go around saying that people should vote for Brexit because war criminals great  statesmen like Tony Blair ... support Bremain...

Please do.

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Well, you're certainly convincing me.

I've given given up on convincing racist xenophobes and other assorted Trumpists.

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Well, you're certainly convincing me.

I've given given up on convincing racist xenophobes and other assorted Trumpists.

Seems reasonable enough; not sure what all that has to do with me though.

Depends on whether you are convincible.

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Trump has endorsed Brexit. That alone should be reason enough for every decent person to vote to stay.

Very clever of Trump.  He is trying wrap himself up with a certain part of the Margaret Thatcher legacy.   

I don't think Trump has any idea who Margaret Thatcher is.

No, of course he knows who she is: he is old enough. Whether he is aware of her position on Europe is another question completely.

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How has the leave side addressed the issue of British citizens losing EU rights to retire in southern Europe without having to get a special non-EU citizen residence permit? I would think this would be an appealing argument for the remain side to appeal to older-middle aged voters.

Cameron prefers trying to scare the older population into voting Remain by stating their pensions would be at risk if Brexit happens.

There's nothing this idiot won't say in order to try to win this referendum.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/11/brexit-axe-state-pensions-david-cameron-nhs-cold-reality

Well, he is right. England without the EU (I am not sure, we should be still talking of UK in that case, in a historic sense) wold be a poorer country with higher inflation, and, yes, pensions would be difficult to pay. I guess, they would meet the obligations by inflating, while playing with inflation adjustment numbers to make the real pensions smaller, rather than repudiating them outright.

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   How has the leave side addressed the issue of British citizens losing EU rights to retire in southern Europe without having to get a special non-EU citizen residence permit? I would think this would be an appealing argument for the remain side to appeal to older-middle aged voters.

They have not. I guess, they will be surpised when grandma shows on their doorstep asking for an attic to stay in.

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Hm.  Seems like they will Brexit.

It will be interesting to see, what stand will the EU negotiators take. I would suggest conditioning retention of visa and residence privilleges for British citizens in Europe on Britain joining Schengen. I mean, as Norway and Iceland amply demonstrate, you do not need to be a EU member to join

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  Switzerland is also part of Schengen, not part of EU. 

Yep. So, UK (England?) could go from being part of EU and having its own border controls to not being part of EU and sharing border controls.

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The worst of both worlds, lol.

I mean, if England Brexits, it deserves the worst of both world. It should become more integrated into European institutions than it is now, but without the seat at the table when these are negotiated. Hopefully, they would also force them to abandon the pound in exchange for retaining trade access.

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The worst of both worlds, lol.

I mean, if England Brexits, it deserves the worst of both world. It should become more integrated into European institutions than it is now, but without the seat at the table when these are negotiated. Hopefully, they would also force them to abandon the pound in exchange for retaining trade access.

There is no chance that Britain could be forced to adopt the basket case currency that is the Euro. While I will probably vote to remain your post is complete nonsense.

Well, obviously, as a punishment You wouldn't be forcing Britain to adopt the Euro for any other purpose

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The worst of both worlds, lol.

I mean, if England Brexits, it deserves the worst of both world. It should become more integrated into European institutions than it is now, but without the seat at the table when these are negotiated. Hopefully, they would also force them to abandon the pound in exchange for retaining trade access.

Same threats were made to Norway and Switzerland.
And if the EU countries decided cut their nose to spite their faces, in an event of a Leave Vote. The following will Happen:
-Fifth of the cars manufactured in Germany are sold in the Uk, and as results thousands of jobs will be lost.
-The U.K. Is the biggest customer for French wine and cheese industries, many French farmers will suffer as result.
-over two thirds of Irish beef is sold in the Uk, majority of Irish farmers will be devastated.
- and there other examples

Bare in mind, next year there will be elections in both France and Germany, I wonder what Merkel will say to those car manufacturers and in France what will Hollande say to French farmers,

The EU sells more to the UK, then the UK sells to the EU, so if the EU decides to play this dirty little game, they will suffer as result more then us.

And Norway and Switzerland are in Schengen, in case you did not notice.

Well, given what happens to the pound, Brits will be consuming a lot less of both cheeses and cars, anyway, whether they are punished or not. And given the transportation costs, it is not like a small tarrif hike would make the Brits buy cars in India by itself. And as for wine and cheese,.... I mean, they could import American cheese, if they so wish Then, again, since Scotland will, in all likelyhood, will be back in the EU within the two-year negotiation period (we will have to see about Wales, I guess), German cars and French cheese will have that market to themselves.  I guess, Scots will be eating more camembert and gorgonzola, and less wensleydale

Bearing in mind how much mind-baring is required to vote for Brexit, I mean...

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Europe is a much bigger market than the UK - that is even if we are talking of the "UK", and not of England, as we, probably, should. Negotiating advantage here would not be with the London government, whatever government it is.

[ag]

The worst of both worlds, lol.

I mean, if England Brexits, it deserves the worst of both world. It should become more integrated into European institutions than it is now, but without the seat at the table when these are negotiated. Hopefully, they would also force them to abandon the pound in exchange for retaining trade access.

Same threats were made to Norway and Switzerland.
And if the EU countries decided cut their nose to spite their faces, in an event of a Leave Vote. The following will Happen:
-Fifth of the cars manufactured in Germany are sold in the Uk, and as results thousands of jobs will be lost.
-The U.K. Is the biggest customer for French wine and cheese industries, many French farmers will suffer as result.
-over two thirds of Irish beef is sold in the Uk, majority of Irish farmers will be devastated.
- and there other examples

Bare in mind, next year there will be elections in both France and Germany, I wonder what Merkel will say to those car manufacturers and in France what will Hollande say to French farmers,

The EU sells more to the UK, then the UK sells to the EU, so if the EU decides to play this dirty little game, they will suffer as result more then us.

And Norway and Switzerland are in Schengen, in case you did not notice.

Well, given what happens to the pound, Brits will be consuming a lot less of both cheeses and cars, anyway, whether they are punished or not. And given the transportation costs, it is not like a small tarrif hike would make the Brits buy cars in India by itself. And as for wine and cheese,.... I mean, they could import American cheese, if they so wish Then, again, since Scotland will, in all likelyhood, will be back in the EU within the two-year negotiation period (we will have to see about Wales, I guess), German cars and French cheese will have that market to themselves.  I guess, Scots will be eating more camembert and gorgonzola, and less wensleydale

Bearing in mind how much mind-baring is required to vote for Brexit, I mean...

We might and they might, Britain might not even vote for brexit, only Time will tell us what will really happen
U might be surprised Wales is almost as Eurosecptic as England is according to most recent polls
Meant by Norway as they were bullied into join the EU, but voters rejected the joining the EU back in the 90s
Switzerland has voted recently against free movement of labour

If he scots decided to leave, that their democratic right,

It is your right to leave Europe. You are welcome to exercise it The fact, though, is, you need European integration a lot more than Europe needs you.  So you will have to negotiate. And you will start in a very bad negotiating position. Especially, given that you will almost certainly have to deal with a Scottish secession in the process (ok, ok, you can keep Wales ).

The fact is, Norway and Switzerland, though they have managed to retain sovereignty in a few areas that mattered for them the most (as, for that matter, has the UK), have been forced to give up much more to Europe than anybody would have thought possible. On most issues they are forced to adopt European policies without even having a chance to participate in their elaboration. The UK has always been a special case in the EU - a member that has resisted fully joining in. As a member, whose consent has been necessary for most changes, it has been able to negotiate these sorts of exceptions - in many cases more successfully, than, say Norway (not being part of Schengen is but one clear example).

Well, now it will not be a member. The London government will negotiate some sort of a Norway-like agreement. Since it will be negotiating it under the gun of losing access to European markets and with European negotiators, post referendum, quite inclined to tell the Brits to go have sex with themselves, if they so like, I doubt this agreement will be very advantageous, to begin with. In the future, though, things will be worse. Next time a European treaty is negotiated, there will be no English diplomats at the table, nor will ratification in Westminster be necessary for the agreement to pass. However, like the Norwegians and the Swiss these days, chances are that Brits will be forced to adopt many of the policy implications of such an agreement they will be no part of negotiating. Overall, Europe will become even less acceptable without the direct British influence - but it will have to be accepted, in order to avoid the cost of a full break.

So, in case Brexist wins, I fully expect England to be a part of Schengen zone, dutifully contributing to most European projects and normally adopting most European regulations, as sent from Brussels. A dinimished state with a sharply diminished role in the world. A benign curiosity.

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The problem for EU it's anti-democratic, and caused so much misery to poor people in the south of Europe,

The problem with this argument is, of course, that without the EU those Southern Europeans would have been a lot poorer and more miserable, and not only in recent years. Much of their prosperity for decades has been based on EU membership. Loss of some (though not all) of that is painful: but less painful than not having enjoyed it at all.

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Cameron already stated what they (Tory govt) want to negotiate with the EU as for the form of relations between EU-UK? Some sort of association? Free trade area maybe?

I mean, if there is no agreement post-Brexit, Britain is in for a very hard landing. Visas to travel cross-Channel, sharp reallocation of trade flows, huge financial crisis, massive expulsion of British citizens from Europe, etc., etc., etc. Of course there will be an agreement negotiated.

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It will be 50-50 and will go through 35 recounts

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Polls closed?

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DECELERATION IMMINENT IN GIBRALTAR

If it's not 95%+ Remain, then Leave have done well.

Have they accelerated previously?

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Who are the UKIP/Remain voters

Well, there are Hispanic Trumpists, so there have to be UKIP remainers.

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GIBRALTAR
Remain - 19,322 (95.91%)
Leave - 823

Viva Gibraltar!

They should have let Jersey, etc. vote as well.

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GIBRALTAR
Remain - 19,322 (95.91%)
Leave - 823

Viva Gibraltar!

They should have let Jersey, etc. vote as well.

Channel Islands are not in the EU. Neither is the Isle of Man.

I know. But it would have been great if their citizens voted