NE1: Northeast Devolution Referendum Act, 2015

[DKrol]

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Debate will last until debate has ended.

Rep. Clyde1998, you have 48 hours to advocate for your bill.

[Blair]

There's literally no way that this bill can pass-it would break the northeast's economy. Having devolved control over stuff like Broadcasting, Energy and Pensions isn't even possible under the Federal System

[Clyde1998]

A sizeable majority people have said in the polls that I've been conducting that the Northeast should have more powers, the question is which powers we should have control over.

This bill proposes control over almost everything - I've done this so we can debate which affairs the Northeast should have control over and remove any powers, from this bill, as appropriate.

I've decided to have this as a referendum - as I feel that this is something that people in the Northeast should decide whether we should have additional powers or not.

The poll I'm, currently, running suggests that our citizens maybe don't want control over Pensions and Welfare - I'll allow time for more responses, however, so this could change with more responses.

In terms of running a referendum, I've suggested that a turnout of 40% (currently 17) for the result to be valid, with a simple majority required for these powers to be transferred to the Northeast. I'm proposing that the referendum should also be endorsed by the Atlasian Senate, as well, to ensure that this referendum will produce the powers promised, if there is a vote in favour of the additional powers.

Fire away...

[Clyde1998]

There's literally no way that this bill can pass-it would break the northeast's economy. Having devolved control over stuff like Broadcasting, Energy and Pensions isn't even possible under the Federal System

How would it break our economy - are you suggesting that the people in the Northeast are unable to run their own affairs?

For energy and pensions - I've made an amendment. I don't see how Broadcasting can't be devolved though.

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[Former Lincoln Assemblyman & Lt. Gov. RGN]

Limited powers in all sectors might be possible. Why not make this an issue to the other regions too?

[Clyde1998]

Limited powers in all sectors might be possible. Why not make this an issue to the other regions too?

We can do - I'm just a representative in Northeast, which is why I've proposed it in the Northeast only. I would prefer for all regions to have the same power - asymmetrical devolution can cause issues...

[Blair]

There's literally no way that this bill can pass-it would break the northeast's economy. Having devolved control over stuff like Broadcasting, Energy and Pensions isn't even possible under the Federal System

How would it break our economy - are you suggesting that the people in the Northeast are unable to run their own affairs?

For energy and pensions - I've made an amendment. I don't see how Broadcasting can't be devolved though.

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I'm suggesting that devo-max, which is what this bill is should not be introduced when we already have a Federal Government that could ovveride all of these issues. Broadcasting has several regulations on it already, from a federal viewpoint

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Federal_Communications_Commission

I just don't see the point in this bill when the Federal System already allows for this. We shouldn't break the debate down to populist rhetoric about who should be trusted with power when the current system works perfectly fine.

To take one example, if you had full control over education you'd lose your Pell Grants, which have been very effective in helping poorer kids get a college education.

Would full power over taxation remove the Federal Income tax?

Would environment devolution allow the Northeast to overrule the ban on Fracking?

Would minimum wage devolution remove the Federal minimum wage, since we just increased it I believe it's actually higher than the Northeast minimum wage.

We're talking about massive constitutional change that completely bypasses the ability of the Federal Government to regulate, maintain and protect the Regions

[Former Lincoln Assemblyman & Lt. Gov. RGN]

Limited powers in all sectors might be possible. Why not make this an issue to the other regions too?

We can do - I'm just a representative in Northeast, which is why I've proposed it in the Northeast only. I would prefer for all regions to have the same power - asymmetrical devolution can cause issues...

I'm just bringing up the possibility of making this an issue for all regions.  What I'm really saying is that the assembly can have limited powers on some of the sectors, and full powers on the rest (NE assembly should have at least "little powers" on all of the sectors)

[DKrol]

The Amendment from Rep. Clyde1998 has been ruled as Friendly.

[Former Lincoln Assemblyman & Lt. Gov. RGN]

There's literally no way that this bill can pass-it would break the northeast's economy. Having devolved control over stuff like Broadcasting, Energy and Pensions isn't even possible under the Federal System

How would it break our economy - are you suggesting that the people in the Northeast are unable to run their own affairs?

For energy and pensions - I've made an amendment. I don't see how Broadcasting can't be devolved though.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

I'm suggesting that devo-max, which is what this bill is should not be introduced when we already have a Federal Government that could ovveride all of these issues. Broadcasting has several regulations on it already, from a federal viewpoint

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Federal_Communications_Commission

I just don't see the point in this bill when the Federal System already allows for this. We shouldn't break the debate down to populist rhetoric about who should be trusted with power when the current system works perfectly fine.

To take one example, if you had full control over education you'd lose your Pell Grants, which have been very effective in helping poorer kids get a college education.

Would full power over taxation remove the Federal Income tax?

Would environment devolution allow the Northeast to overrule the ban on Fracking?

Would minimum wage devolution remove the Federal minimum wage, since we just increased it I believe it's actually higher than the Northeast minimum wage.

We're talking about massive constitutional change that completely bypasses the ability of the Federal Government to regulate, maintain and protect the Regions

This can be improved. If I am an assemblyman, I would rather support for limited on some and full powers on the others. Because I think when the NE region has full control on everything, that's authoritative for me.

[Blair]

There's literally no way that this bill can pass-it would break the northeast's economy. Having devolved control over stuff like Broadcasting, Energy and Pensions isn't even possible under the Federal System

How would it break our economy - are you suggesting that the people in the Northeast are unable to run their own affairs?

For energy and pensions - I've made an amendment. I don't see how Broadcasting can't be devolved though.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

I'm suggesting that devo-max, which is what this bill is should not be introduced when we already have a Federal Government that could ovveride all of these issues. Broadcasting has several regulations on it already, from a federal viewpoint

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Federal_Communications_Commission

I just don't see the point in this bill when the Federal System already allows for this. We shouldn't break the debate down to populist rhetoric about who should be trusted with power when the current system works perfectly fine.

To take one example, if you had full control over education you'd lose your Pell Grants, which have been very effective in helping poorer kids get a college education.

Would full power over taxation remove the Federal Income tax?

Would environment devolution allow the Northeast to overrule the ban on Fracking?

Would minimum wage devolution remove the Federal minimum wage, since we just increased it I believe it's actually higher than the Northeast minimum wage.

We're talking about massive constitutional change that completely bypasses the ability of the Federal Government to regulate, maintain and protect the Regions

This can be improved. If I am an assemblyman, I would rather support for limited on some and full powers on the others. Because I think when the NE region has full control on everything, that's authoritative for me.

I mean, I don't understand the need for this. The Federal System already allows for this to happen-governors have vast amounts of control (which is good), for example the Northeast has de-facto control in most of these areas already whilst still getting support/help/regulation from the Federal Government.

Normally, stuff like this comes from a problem. For example saying 'I can't pass a bill to do with x y or z' but there isn't a problem . We seem to be legislating for massive change on the basis of a single poll, and the ideas of populism. There's too many loopholes in this bill, I mean it needs the Senate to agree to it, and then to transfer the power. I'd be pushing for the Senate to reject this bill

[DKrol]

I have an issue with this bill - There is no formal question for the referendum. The bill supplies the options "Yes", "No", or "Abstain" without specifying the question they are answering.

[Clyde1998]

Limited powers in all sectors might be possible. Why not make this an issue to the other regions too?

We can do - I'm just a representative in Northeast, which is why I've proposed it in the Northeast only. I would prefer for all regions to have the same power - asymmetrical devolution can cause issues...

I'm just bringing up the possibility of making this an issue for all regions.  What I'm really saying is that the assembly can have limited powers on some of the sectors, and full powers on the rest (NE assembly should have at least "little powers" on all of the sectors)

We have limited powers in most key sectors already - such as tax, education, health - however the Atlasian Government has the power to veto anything that we do on those issues.

I'll certainly look at increasing powers within certain sectors, without going to full control of that sector - should it be required. As I have said, these are early proposals - and will almost certainly be reduced, based on the opinion of the Assembly and the Northeast Citizens.

There's literally no way that this bill can pass-it would break the northeast's economy. Having devolved control over stuff like Broadcasting, Energy and Pensions isn't even possible under the Federal System

How would it break our economy - are you suggesting that the people in the Northeast are unable to run their own affairs?

For energy and pensions - I've made an amendment. I don't see how Broadcasting can't be devolved though.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

I'm suggesting that devo-max, which is what this bill is should not be introduced when we already have a Federal Government that could ovveride all of these issues. Broadcasting has several regulations on it already, from a federal viewpoint

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Federal_Communications_Commission

I just don't see the point in this bill when the Federal System already allows for this. We shouldn't break the debate down to populist rhetoric about who should be trusted with power when the current system works perfectly fine.

To take one example, if you had full control over education you'd lose your Pell Grants, which have been very effective in helping poorer kids get a college education.

Would full power over taxation remove the Federal Income tax?

Would environment devolution allow the Northeast to overrule the ban on Fracking?

Would minimum wage devolution remove the Federal minimum wage, since we just increased it I believe it's actually higher than the Northeast minimum wage.

We're talking about massive constitutional change that completely bypasses the ability of the Federal Government to regulate, maintain and protect the Regions

I think the problem is that the Federal Government can veto anything that we do.

If we wish to have less regulations in certain sectors, if we feel that it's required, we're unable to do it.

To take one example, if you had full control over education you'd lose your Pell Grants, which have been very effective in helping poorer kids get a college education.
Not if we funded a similar system ourselves. With full control over taxation - we'd be able to fund this, as we wouldn't be paying federal income tax )all our taxes would go to the Northeast Assembly).

Would full power over taxation remove the Federal Income tax?
Yes. However, as certain things would still be controlled by the Federal Government - the Northeast would pay a fee based on our population (for example - if something costs £1bn and our population share is 20%, we'd pay £200m to the Federal Government for these, for things that aren't devolved).

Would environment devolution allow the Northeast to overrule the ban on Fracking?
If the Northeast Assembly wishes to change that law, then it would be there decision - in the same way that any future Atlasian Senate could change the law for the entire country. I highly doubt it would happen though - given the political shape of the assembly.

Would minimum wage devolution remove the Federal minimum wage, since we just increased it I believe it's actually higher than the Northeast minimum wage.
I proposed a minimum wage bill in the last assembly, which we were forced to table - due to the Federal Government was dealing with their bill. The bill I proposed was higher than the previous minimum wage in the Northeast - I'm not 100% sure how it compared to the new Federal minimum, however. If it is lower, then it wouldn't take long to solve that issue.

We're talking about massive constitutional change that completely bypasses the ability of the Federal Government to regulate, maintain and protect the Regions
I don't see how the regions would be under threat if these extra powers are granted. It would give the people of the Northeast more control over how they feel they should be governed, without becoming independent from Atlasia.

[Clyde1998]

I have an issue with this bill - There is no formal question for the referendum. The bill supplies the options "Yes", "No", or "Abstain" without specifying the question they are answering.

The bill sets out the a question should confirmed in agreement of both the Northeast Assembly and the Atlasian Senate, which is why I haven't proposed a question with this bill - as of yet.

If you wish to have an example now - "Should the powers in the Northeast Devolution Referendum Act be devolved to the Northeast?"

[Blair]

Again, it's simple direct democracy populism which quite frankly I don't agree with. The system isn't broken-we shouldn't hand more power away just because we can. The citizens of the northeast already vote for an extremely powerful assembly that can deal with these issues without removing themselves from the Federal Government.

I mean the first problem is the delay-you'd have a period of about 3-4 months after this split where they'd be a massive black hole. Every single federal program, medicare, medicaid, HIV/AIDs drugs funding would be removed from the northeast as you rush to try and get it passed. Without sounding demagogue like people would lose access to vital healthcare funding. You'd need to pass comprehensive legislation just to get these programs back on board-that's if you can afford to pay for these programs. Take flood defense for another example-in many cases it's not economically wise for states/regions to be given 100% control over this because their are times when the Federal Government needs to get involded

This comes down to your view of what role government should play in our lives-I believe that all levels of government from the town hall in Westford to the UN building in New York have role in protecting the most vulnerable in our society. I don't see anything wrong with the Federal Government being able to regulate fracking for example, or limit the amount of CO2 we emit in the same way I don't see anything wrong with the UN telling us we can't use landmines in combat. As unpopular as it is government regulation can be a force for good. You make it sound like the Federal Government, or the Senate has been striking down Northeast laws, but there hasn't been a single case in the last couple of months where the Federal Government has directly stopped this Assembly from acting in it's own will

I just can't support, or approve giving power away just because we can. That's really all I have to say on the issue, and I hope the Assembly acts with caution  

[Clyde1998]

Again, it's simple direct democracy populism which quite frankly I don't agree with. The system isn't broken-we shouldn't hand more power away just because we can. The citizens of the northeast already vote for an extremely powerful assembly that can deal with these issues without removing themselves from the Federal Government.

I mean the first problem is the delay-you'd have a period of about 3-4 months after this split where they'd be a massive black hole. Every single federal program, medicare, medicaid, HIV/AIDs drugs funding would be removed from the northeast as you rush to try and get it passed. Without sounding demagogue like people would lose access to vital healthcare funding. You'd need to pass comprehensive legislation just to get these programs back on board-that's if you can afford to pay for these programs. Take flood defense for another example-in many cases it's not economically wise for states/regions to be given 100% control over this because their are times when the Federal Government needs to get involded

This comes down to your view of what role government should play in our lives-I believe that all levels of government from the town hall in Westford to the UN building in New York have role in protecting the most vulnerable in our society. I don't see anything wrong with the Federal Government being able to regulate fracking for example, or limit the amount of CO2 we emit in the same way I don't see anything wrong with the UN telling us we can't use landmines in combat. As unpopular as it is government regulation can be a force for good. You make it sound like the Federal Government, or the Senate has been striking down Northeast laws, but there hasn't been a single case in the last couple of months where the Federal Government has directly stopped this Assembly from acting in it's own will

I just can't support, or approve giving power away just because we can. That's really all I have to say on the issue, and I hope the Assembly acts with caution  

The bill proposes that the legislation passed to devolve power shall have a timeline to devolve powers - which would prevent the issue you've mentioned.

I agree, the Government should be protecting the most vulnerable people in society, however we should be able to control our own affairs on issues that could help our citizen.

If we feel that we shouldn't be paying for certain legislation, then we shouldn't be required to. If we wish to pay for certain legislation, we should be able to - but we require full, or additional (at least), taxation from citizens and businesses in the Northeast.

There may have not been a case where the Federal Government have stopped us directly, but certain bills have had to be tabled or scrapped - due to lack of funding, that we would have if we controlled more of Northeast tax revenues, and due to the Atlasian Government modifying bills at the same time as us. I've held off from proposing certain bills, due to feeling that we don't have control over certain aspects of our affairs.

There needs to be something legal to confirm what powers we do and don't have - you mentioned earlier that "the Northeast has de-facto control in most of these areas" - so we know what powers we actually have.

[Dr. Cynic]

I can't support this given that this is just asking for trouble and will cause a great deal of trouble with the current and future GMs. I'm especially concerned about education. The Northeast, through one of the bills I wrote some time ago (Unless it was repealed while I wasn't looking), provides tuition free education for Northeast resident students. How much more control can you have than that?

Changing the Welfare programs could really put heavy strain on our economy as well. Already, we handle things like local housing and such, but then having to provide things like welfare without federal aid? You'd bankrupt the regional government very quickly and you would no longer see federal help at all in that area.

When you say law, what exactly do you mean? Control of law enforcement? Control of what federal laws we wish to adhere to and which we don't? That's not clear.

Health? Why health? Again, that's asking for difficulty with both our budget and in terms of federal law. How long could we handle a lot of these items without raising taxes?

Also, 40% is high hopes for turnout on a referendum in Atlasia, so it might not even get enough votes to be deemed valid anyway. There are a lot of problems with a good chunk of this idea. It's a nice idea and I see where it's coming from, but it's not practical for the game and it'll probably cause more headaches than it's worth.

[DKrol]

I have an issue with this bill - There is no formal question for the referendum. The bill supplies the options "Yes", "No", or "Abstain" without specifying the question they are answering.

The bill sets out the a question should confirmed in agreement of both the Northeast Assembly and the Atlasian Senate, which is why I haven't proposed a question with this bill - as of yet.

If you wish to have an example now - "Should the powers in the Northeast Devolution Referendum Act be devolved to the Northeast?"

If we don't have a set question, mandating the answers makes no sense.

[Clyde1998]

I can't support this given that this is just asking for trouble and will cause a great deal of trouble with the current and future GMs. I'm especially concerned about education. The Northeast, through one of the bills I wrote some time ago (Unless it was repealed while I wasn't looking), provides tuition free education for Northeast resident students. How much more control can you have than that?

Changing the Welfare programs could really put heavy strain on our economy as well. Already, we handle things like local housing and such, but then having to provide things like welfare without federal aid? You'd bankrupt the regional government very quickly and you would no longer see federal help at all in that area.

When you say law, what exactly do you mean? Control of law enforcement? Control of what federal laws we wish to adhere to and which we don't? That's not clear.

Health? Why health? Again, that's asking for difficulty with both our budget and in terms of federal law. How long could we handle a lot of these items without raising taxes?

Also, 40% is high hopes for turnout on a referendum in Atlasia, so it might not even get enough votes to be deemed valid anyway. There are a lot of problems with a good chunk of this idea. It's a nice idea and I see where it's coming from, but it's not practical for the game and it'll probably cause more headaches than it's worth.

Education would include funding, curriculum and qualifications authority without any interference from the Federal Government. I don't believe we control the qualifications authority at this stage.

Law would include all law enforcement and which federal laws we follow in sectors where we have full control. I'll make that clearer.

Health would require us to have additional control over taxation - such as corporation tax revenues raised in the Northeast, for example - so we can fund the system. I'd be willing to drop full control over health, however - and keep what we currently have.

We got over 60% for the Electoral Reform Amendment and Presidential Pardon and I think we're just under 40% of the current Cabinet Reform Amendment referendum, which was much lower in profile in comparison. Maybe 30% (currently 13 votes) could work.

I've taken Welfare out in the amendment made.

I have an issue with this bill - There is no formal question for the referendum. The bill supplies the options "Yes", "No", or "Abstain" without specifying the question they are answering.

The bill sets out the a question should confirmed in agreement of both the Northeast Assembly and the Atlasian Senate, which is why I haven't proposed a question with this bill - as of yet.

If you wish to have an example now - "Should the powers in the Northeast Devolution Referendum Act be devolved to the Northeast?"

If we don't have a set question, mandating the answers makes no sense.

I'd want to debate the question before including in the bill, however I'll put my proposed question in an amendment if that's what's required.

[Clyde1998]

Amendment based on what's been said.

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[Prince of Salem]

I obviously like the idea of much more power and responsibilities for our region, but I'll be taking my time to analyze the specifics of this.

[Clyde1998]

I obviously like the idea of much more power and responsibilities for our region, but I'll be taking my time to analyze the specifics of this.

That's okay - it's the specifics that need to be discussed.

[Dr. Cynic]

You still haven't actually taken welfare out of the amended bill, man...

[Clyde1998]

Amendment based on what's been said.

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[Clyde1998]

You still haven't actually taken welfare out of the amended bill, man...

Sorry, I've corrected that now.