Opinion of Alexis Tsipras

[Antonio the Sixth]

Who cares whose fault it is? Does whatever the Papandreou governments may have done in the 80s justify literally starving the Greeks now? Since when has paying back debt become more important that fulfilling basic human needs?

The way this discussion is framed is sick. Just sick.

[Oakvale]

Who cares whose fault it is? Does whatever the Papandreou governments may have done in the 80s justify literally starving the Greeks now? Since when has paying back debt become more important that fulfilling basic human needs?

The way this discussion is framed is sick. Just sick.

Starving? Don't be dramatic.

I've pretty much stopped caring about this conversation in the last few months - Greece will get what it's earned through outrageous fiscal irresponsibility and electing clowns like this idiot to office (not that previous Greek governments were less disastrous... but they might have accepted the need for further reforms instead of grandstanding).

The unfortunate thing is that if Tsipras continues to be so reckless and opportunistic there's a lot more than just his joke country on the line. It would be ideal if there was a feasible way for the Eurozone to depose these lunatics and appoint some kind of technocratic government, like when a company goes into receivership - maybe such a government could even convince people to pay their taxes? Ahaha, I kid. This is Greece. Maybe it wouldn't be "democratic" but Tsipras is going to be ousted by the military or something at this rate. He's playing with fire.

[Antonio the Sixth]

The "reforms" that the EC, ECB, and especially the IMF, are trying to force down Greece's throat would not actually do anything to resolve the current issues. They would only make things worse, as the previous "reforms" have for the past five years.

And there was no hyperbole in my comments. Some people are literally starving, or living in houses without water or electricity, or don't have a house at all. That's mere reality.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

Who cares whose fault it is? Does whatever the Papandreou governments may have done in the 80s justify literally starving the Greeks now? Since when has paying back debt become more important that fulfilling basic human needs?

The way this discussion is framed is sick. Just sick.

Starving? Don't be dramatic.

I've pretty much stopped caring about this conversation in the last few months - Greece will get what it's earned through outrageous fiscal irresponsibility and electing clowns like this idiot to office (not that previous Greek governments were less disastrous... but they might have accepted the need for further reforms instead of grandstanding).

The unfortunate thing is that if Tsipras continues to be so reckless and opportunistic there's a lot more than just his joke country on the line. It would be ideal if there was a feasible way for the Eurozone to depose these lunatics and appoint some kind of technocratic government, like when a company goes into receivership - maybe such a government could even convince people to pay their taxes? Ahaha, I kid. This is Greece. Maybe it wouldn't be "democratic" but Tsipras is going to be ousted by the military or something at this rate. He's playing with fire.

I'm sorry Oakvale but attitudes like this annoy me. Yes, there is a serious problem with tax evasion in Greece. But you think people in Ireland or the United States or anywhere else pay taxes out of the goodness of their heart? Don't be ridiculous.

The problem is with Greek institutions and the inability to create a functioning tax bureaucracy for whatever reason, and generally speaking tax bureaucracies cost money.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

Actually I will add that my opinion of Tsipras has actually gone up during these negotiations.

[ObserverIE]

Don't be dramatic.

...

It would be ideal if there was a feasible way for the Eurozone to depose these lunatics and appoint some kind of technocratic government

Democracy is such a pain in the arse sometimes. It's so much easier to get things done in a dictatorship, isn't it?

[ag]

The "reforms" that the EC, ECB, and especially the IMF, are trying to force down Greece's throat would not actually do anything to resolve the current issues. They would only make things worse, as the previous "reforms" have for the past five years.

And there was no hyperbole in my comments. Some people are literally starving, or living in houses without water or electricity, or don't have a house at all. That's mere reality.

You may well be right here. But Greece does not have many options. Germany is also a democracy, you know. It is not a coherent approach to insult Germans, and then to ask their government for a bailout. Greeks should have tried to negotiate a controlled exit from the Eurozone, stressing the social consequences and appealing for European solidarity. As it is, it is going to be kicked out - and many more Greeks will be starving.

This all is, of course, a gigantic foock up. I feel really sorry for innocent Greek citizens. It is going to be nasty.

[Thunderbird is the word]

He should have told the greedy bankers to take a hike.

You mean greedy greeks.

Nobody forced greece to take loans they couldn't afford.

and Nobody forced the various financial institutions to give them loans they can't get back.

Why can't everyone see there are two sides to this and it is not a morality play?

First nobody assumed that Greece wouldn't payback. Greece willingly signed contracts that they would borrow X money and pay back in 10 years and just kept piling on debt after debt because they wanted to use the borrowed money for votes.


One person owes the other not the otherway around.

If we subscribe to this rubbish that somebody could borrow tons and money and get away with it because "otherwise it would be unfair to have to payback". Then people would stop lending to eachother at all.

                                                            

So that makes it okay to impose such harsh austerity that people are starving in the streets while the rich don't pay a dime?  that

[Silent Hunter]

So that makes it okay to impose such harsh austerity that people are starving in the streets while the rich don't pay a dime?  that

Sadly, that's not solely a Greek issue; we're having problems with malnutrition in the UK as well due to benefit cuts.
People

[Landslide Lyndon]

The "reforms" that the EC, ECB, and especially the IMF, are trying to force down Greece's throat would not actually do anything to resolve the current issues. They would only make things worse, as the previous "reforms" have for the past five years.

And there was no hyperbole in my comments. Some people are literally starving, or living in houses without water or electricity, or don't have a house at all. That's mere reality.

Sorry Antonio but there has been no reforms all these years by our governments. They just named reforms the cutting of salaries and pensions. Our public service remains as bloated and corrupt as in 2009 and nobody dares to touch it because they are afraid of the electoral consequences.

Papandreou was the only Prime Minister who dares to take on the special interests and he was toppled by them.

[Velasco]

Scare quotes in "reforms" must be there for something.

So that makes it okay to impose such harsh austerity that people are starving in the streets while the rich don't pay a dime?  that

Sadly, that's not solely a Greek issue; we're having problems with malnutrition in the UK as well due to benefit cuts.
People

We have a serious issue with poverty increase and child malnutrition in Spain. People denying that there's a problem leaves me perplexed.

If anyone's interested, there's an interesting book about the Eurozone here:

http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?cat=44

The cover illustrates perfectly the trap we are caught in.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Tsipras is even more of a FF after today's move. This is the referendum Greece should have had years ago.

The "reforms" that the EC, ECB, and especially the IMF, are trying to force down Greece's throat would not actually do anything to resolve the current issues. They would only make things worse, as the previous "reforms" have for the past five years.

And there was no hyperbole in my comments. Some people are literally starving, or living in houses without water or electricity, or don't have a house at all. That's mere reality.

Sorry Antonio but there has been no reforms all these years by our governments. They just named reforms the cutting of salaries and pensions. Our public service remains as bloated and corrupt as in 2009 and nobody dares to touch it because they are afraid of the electoral consequences.

Papandreou was the only Prime Minister who dares to take on the special interests and he was toppled by them.

But these cuts were what the Troika asked for! Even now, the negotiations stalled largely before the IMF was bent on imposing yet another cut on pensions! The Troika has no interest in actual structural reforms that would allow Greece to perform its duties as a State while durably resolving its debt issue. All they're interested in is in enforcing the ideology of austerity, in the face of all evidence that points to it being a complete failure.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

Question: Why do the Greek Islands have exemptions from VAT? And why is this worth preserving?

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Many of the demanded reforms actually look pretty reasonable (sorry comrades but it's true: I'm not sure if we should be getting particularly furious at the idea of ending pension sweetheart deals or special rates of VAT for islands or whatever). However many of the cuts already imposed were (and are) clearly not* and general principle that you can, indeed, get blood out of a stone is less than entirely sane.

_{*A political question worth asking I suspect: why were all these bullsh!t featherbedding arrangements (relatively) protected?}

[Simfan34]

Don't be dramatic.

...

It would be ideal if there was a feasible way for the Eurozone to depose these lunatics and appoint some kind of technocratic government

Democracy is such a pain in the arse sometimes. It's so much easier to get things done in a dictatorship, isn't it?

I've been saying this since time immemorial and yet whenever I do people act like I've said something terrible...

You know, this whole thing started because a batch of people who shouldn't have had loans asked for them and the banks decided to lend them money anyway.

And if they denied loans to Greece?

If they'd denied them back in the 1980s, we wouldn't be in this mess. In fact, a lot of the mess in the developing world is due to loans being given during the Cold War to military juntas so they could buy weapons... and it became so impossible for them to pay back as well as preventing governments from looking after their people properly, a lot of it (after pressure for campaign groups) was forgiven. Look up the Jubilee 2000 campaign to see what I mean.

At least in the African context, that's usually not what actually did it. That honor usually went to hare brained protectionist import substitution industrialization schemes.

[Antonio the Sixth]

_{*A political question worth asking I suspect: why were all these bullsh!t featherbedding arrangements (relatively) protected?}

Protected by whom, Tsipras or the creditors?

[Filuwaúrdjan]

_{*A political question worth asking I suspect: why were all these bullsh!t featherbedding arrangements (relatively) protected?}

Protected by whom? Tsipras or the creditors?

I mean why are they only on the proposed chopping block now given that actually important government services were hit badly long before? You'd think that regionally variable VAT that's obviously used as a way of dodging tax would be one of the first things to go.

[Antonio the Sixth]

_{*A political question worth asking I suspect: why were all these bullsh!t featherbedding arrangements (relatively) protected?}

Protected by whom? Tsipras or the creditors?

I mean why are they only on the proposed chopping block now given that actually important government services were hit badly long before? You'd think that regionally variable VAT that's obviously used as a way of dodging tax would be one of the first things to go.

As I said twice already, it's abundantly clear that structural reform was never the intent of creditors. Neither was it the intent of Samaras or Venizelos, obviously.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Well yes. One presumes that their intent is mostly just to get their money back (not that they've gone about that in a particularly intelligent manner).

[Silent Hunter]

And now it looks like they might not get it back at all...

[warandwar]

Question: Why do the Greek Islands have exemptions from VAT? And why is this worth preserving?

Tourist industry.

[Simfan34]

And now it looks like they might not get it back at all...

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Which one was it?

Will say the video of people withdrawing money makes the Greeks look rather stoic, pardon the pun. Maybe it's denial or bravado, but the people they interviewed seem to be consciously resisting panic.

[Landslide Lyndon]

But these cuts were what the Troika asked for! Even now, the negotiations stalled largely before the IMF was bent on imposing yet another cut on pensions! The Troika has no interest in actual structural reforms that would allow Greece to perform its duties as a State while durably resolving its debt issue. All they're interested in is in enforcing the ideology of austerity, in the face of all evidence that points to it being a complete failure.

Troika just asked for us to achieve some fiscal targets. They left to us how we d'achieve that. And our governments instead of reforms and cracking down corruption and bureaucracy, preferred to levy more taxes and cut salaries and pensions. 

[Antonio the Sixth]

Troika just asked for us to achieve some fiscal targets. They left to us how we d'achieve that.

This is patently false. All the accounts I have heard of the talks (coming from mainstream media sources, not some random leftist hackblog) pointed out that the creditors had asked for very specific reforms. The IMF in particular was hellbent on imposing cuts to pensions.

[ag]

Troika just asked for us to achieve some fiscal targets. They left to us how we d'achieve that.

This is patently false. All the accounts I have heard of the talks (coming from mainstream media sources, not some random leftist hackblog) pointed out that the creditors had asked for very specific reforms. The IMF in particular was hellbent on imposing cuts to pensions.

Juncker has explicitly stated that he was fine with cutting the military instead.

What they did not want were the measures they did not believe would achieve the goals.

Anyway, the goals were, probably, politically unfeasible.