Jeb Bush rejects God
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Blair
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« on: June 17, 2015, 03:30:08 PM »

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jun/17/jeb-bush-joins-republican-backlash-pope-climate-change?CMP=fb_gu

Video says it all, appears the GOP and Jeb Bush no longer value religion in politics.
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CountryClassSF
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« Reply #1 on: June 17, 2015, 04:03:54 PM »

Disagreeing with the Pope's views on an issue does not mean rejecting God. 
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Ebsy
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« Reply #2 on: June 17, 2015, 04:05:52 PM »

Disagreeing with the Pope's views on an issue does not mean rejecting God. 
I disagree with everything you say and that means I reject you, so...
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Rockefeller GOP
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« Reply #3 on: June 17, 2015, 04:16:23 PM »

Disagreeing with the Pope's views on an issue does not mean rejecting God. 
I disagree with everything you say and that means I reject you, so...

Uh, the Pope isn't God, he's some guy telling 1/6th of the world what to do.
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CountryClassSF
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« Reply #4 on: June 17, 2015, 04:40:06 PM »

Disagreeing with the Pope's views on an issue does not mean rejecting God. 
I disagree with everything you say and that means I reject you, so...

I'm not a deity. 
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CrabCake
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« Reply #5 on: June 17, 2015, 05:04:13 PM »

So most religious politicians pick and mix their supposed "divine" beliefs to back up their preconceived thoughts. Who'd have thunk it?

(And yes lefty religionists do this as well.  It's a two way street. Still intensely amusing to see people like Sicoko Santorum suddenly lose his pious warbling when it comes in conflict with the donors)
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Rockefeller GOP
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« Reply #6 on: June 17, 2015, 05:08:19 PM »

So most religious politicians pick and mix their supposed "divine" beliefs to back up their preconceived thoughts. Who'd have thunk it?

(And yes lefty religionists do this as well.  It's a two way street. Still intensely amusing to see people like Sicoko Santorum suddenly lose his pious warbling when it comes in conflict with the donors)

I'll completely agree to the last part IF they constantly invoke it on issues they support (like Santorum); I have no issue with a Catholic not believing 101% of what the Church teaches.
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Orthogonian Society Treasurer
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« Reply #7 on: June 17, 2015, 05:14:35 PM »

So most religious politicians pick and mix their supposed "divine" beliefs to back up their preconceived thoughts. Who'd have thunk it?

(And yes lefty religionists do this as well.  It's a two way street. Still intensely amusing to see people like Sicoko Santorum suddenly lose his pious warbling when it comes in conflict with the donors)

Faith in climate change is not a doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church. If Francis publicly proclaimed his preference for Pepsi over Coca-Cola, Catholics would not be obliged to drink it.
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Bull Moose Base
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« Reply #8 on: June 17, 2015, 05:18:08 PM »

I like the Pope but I'm more worried that Jeb's rejecting science.
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Fuzzy Stands With His Friend, Chairman Sanchez
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« Reply #9 on: June 17, 2015, 05:50:37 PM »

So most religious politicians pick and mix their supposed "divine" beliefs to back up their preconceived thoughts. Who'd have thunk it?

(And yes lefty religionists do this as well.  It's a two way street. Still intensely amusing to see people like Sicoko Santorum suddenly lose his pious warbling when it comes in conflict with the donors)

Faith in climate change is not a doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church. If Francis publicly proclaimed his preference for Pepsi over Coca-Cola, Catholics would not be obliged to drink it.

I wonder how Jeb Bush squares his record of executing prisoners with the Catholic Church's stance opposing the death penalty.  Issues of life and death, even of condemned murderers, ARE matters of faith and morals, are they not?  I would like to hear Jeb, Santorum, and Paul Ryan explain their support of the death penalty in light of their stated Catholicism.  (I concede that pro-choice Catholics are full of it, so . . .)
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« Reply #10 on: June 17, 2015, 05:56:08 PM »

So most religious politicians pick and mix their supposed "divine" beliefs to back up their preconceived thoughts. Who'd have thunk it?

(And yes lefty religionists do this as well.  It's a two way street. Still intensely amusing to see people like Sicoko Santorum suddenly lose his pious warbling when it comes in conflict with the donors)

Faith in climate change is not a doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church. If Francis publicly proclaimed his preference for Pepsi over Coca-Cola, Catholics would not be obliged to drink it.

I wonder how Jeb Bush squares his record of executing prisoners with the Catholic Church's stance opposing the death penalty.  Issues of life and death, even of condemned murderers, ARE matters of faith and morals, are they not?  I would like to hear Jeb, Santorum, and Paul Ryan explain their support of the death penalty in light of their stated Catholicism.  (I concede that pro-choice Catholics are full of it, so . . .)

The catechism of the RCC states that civil authorities have the right to execute criminals in order to protect the public. We now have means of protecting the public that do not involve execution but the thing in itself is not condemned by the Catholic Church.
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CrabCake
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« Reply #11 on: June 17, 2015, 05:56:27 PM »

So most religious politicians pick and mix their supposed "divine" beliefs to back up their preconceived thoughts. Who'd have thunk it?

(And yes lefty religionists do this as well.  It's a two way street. Still intensely amusing to see people like Sicoko Santorum suddenly lose his pious warbling when it comes in conflict with the donors)

Faith in climate change is not a doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church. If Francis publicly proclaimed his preference for Pepsi over Coca-Cola, Catholics would not be obliged to drink it.

But here's the thing. Frannie isn't just saying "oh it would be super nice if we built some solar panels Smiley Smiley" - he's making it out that Catholics have a moral imperative to fight Climate Change.

What makes that different from previous Catholic indictments to fight the scourge of abortion, which Jeb and Rick so stridently support?
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« Reply #12 on: June 17, 2015, 06:32:31 PM »

So most religious politicians pick and mix their supposed "divine" beliefs to back up their preconceived thoughts. Who'd have thunk it?

(And yes lefty religionists do this as well.  It's a two way street. Still intensely amusing to see people like Sicoko Santorum suddenly lose his pious warbling when it comes in conflict with the donors)

Faith in climate change is not a doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church. If Francis publicly proclaimed his preference for Pepsi over Coca-Cola, Catholics would not be obliged to drink it.

But here's the thing. Frannie isn't just saying "oh it would be super nice if we built some solar panels Smiley Smiley" - he's making it out that Catholics have a moral imperative to fight Climate Change.

What makes that different from previous Catholic indictments to fight the scourge of abortion, which Jeb and Rick so stridently support?

The Catholic position on abortion was dogmatically and infallibly defined in Evangelium Vitae. We won't know if the new encyclical does the same for climate change until we can actually read it.

The Pope's authority to teach infallible doctrine ex cathedra only extends to issues of morality and faith but his statements about humanity's duty to protect the environment could be interpreted as a moral teaching and therefore one that binds Catholics. I think that this has always been a tacitly held belief by Catholics, though. I believe that Bush, Santorum etc. would only be in conflict with Church teaching if he publicly stated that the environment wasn't worth preserving.
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TJ in Oregon
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« Reply #13 on: June 17, 2015, 07:33:07 PM »

So most religious politicians pick and mix their supposed "divine" beliefs to back up their preconceived thoughts. Who'd have thunk it?

(And yes lefty religionists do this as well.  It's a two way street. Still intensely amusing to see people like Sicoko Santorum suddenly lose his pious warbling when it comes in conflict with the donors)

Faith in climate change is not a doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church. If Francis publicly proclaimed his preference for Pepsi over Coca-Cola, Catholics would not be obliged to drink it.

But here's the thing. Frannie isn't just saying "oh it would be super nice if we built some solar panels Smiley Smiley" - he's making it out that Catholics have a moral imperative to fight Climate Change.

What makes that different from previous Catholic indictments to fight the scourge of abortion, which Jeb and Rick so stridently support?

The Catholic position on abortion was dogmatically and infallibly defined in Evangelium Vitae. We won't know if the new encyclical does the same for climate change until we can actually read it.

The Pope's authority to teach infallible doctrine ex cathedra only extends to issues of morality and faith but his statements about humanity's duty to protect the environment could be interpreted as a moral teaching and therefore one that binds Catholics. I think that this has always been a tacitly held belief by Catholics, though. I believe that Bush, Santorum etc. would only be in conflict with Church teaching if he publicly stated that the environment wasn't worth preserving.

The encyclical won't. It can't really and the reason is because the entire concept of global warming is fundamentally a scientific question. The pope will almost undoubtedly say that the scientific consensus is that global warming is real and cause by carbon emissions. We may go so far as to say that given this consensus we have a moral duty to act. But an infallible declaration of man-caused global warning would be a radical departure of the Catholic teachings on faith and reason, and that of science in general. The Catholic Church teaches that faith and reason both lead us to the truth, and that science and the faith are not contradictory. If the Pope were to start making dogmatic decrees about science the entire framework would become incredibly messed up. It will likely be similar to how it is sinful to drop an anvil on someone's head even though the Catholic Church makes no dogmatic declaration about the existence of gravity. I suspect the Pope will also have some language about how science must be open to debate etc etc. The leaked draft was 191 pages long so he'll probably say pretty much everything related to the topic consistent with his views on the social effects of global warming and the Catholic Church's teachings.

As for the quotes here, Jeb's is awful theology and Santorum's is coherent and reasonable.
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pbrower2a
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« Reply #14 on: June 17, 2015, 07:43:52 PM »

I like the Pope but I'm more worried that Jeb's rejecting science.

Bingo.

Science solves problems. Ideology either creates them or intensifies old ones.
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DrScholl
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« Reply #15 on: June 17, 2015, 07:50:26 PM »

Climate change denial is all about corporate bottom lines and corporations give big campaign contributions. Corporations could make more money without environmental regulations, but public health would be worse for it.
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Lincoln Republican
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« Reply #16 on: June 17, 2015, 08:06:37 PM »

What an absolutely ridiculous and misleading title Blair has put on this thread, and what a ludicrous statement he makes that the video says it all.

The video shows Bush stating that he does not make economic policy based on what the Pope says.  Good for Bush I say.

Any politician in their right mind would not make economic decisions based on what the leader of their faith says.   
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WVdemocrat
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« Reply #17 on: June 17, 2015, 08:52:25 PM »

I like the Pope but I'm more worried that Jeb's rejecting science.

Bingo.

Science solves problems. Ideology either creates them or intensifies old ones.

This. This, so much.
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Blair
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« Reply #18 on: June 18, 2015, 01:14:26 AM »

If anyone is wondering the title is ironic.

I just thought it interesting because Jeb says that religion and politics shouldn't mix-seems like he's got a lot of work to do when he gets in
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pbrower2a
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« Reply #19 on: June 18, 2015, 07:56:29 AM »

Climate change denial is all about corporate bottom lines and corporations give big campaign contributions. Corporations could make more money without environmental regulations, but public health would be worse for it.

Climate change could eventually pit one group of plutocrats (big landowners in places in danger of desertification or inundation) against energy extractors. An orange grower in Florida, a rancher in California, and a real estate tycoon in Philadelphia might have good cause to oppose the agenda of heavy energy use.

This could break the conservative coalition.
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Mr. Reactionary
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« Reply #20 on: June 18, 2015, 12:04:43 PM »

Wait ... since when is God a man in a dress and a pointy hat?
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« Reply #21 on: June 18, 2015, 06:48:20 PM »

So most religious politicians pick and mix their supposed "divine" beliefs to back up their preconceived thoughts. Who'd have thunk it?

(And yes lefty religionists do this as well.  It's a two way street. Still intensely amusing to see people like Sicoko Santorum suddenly lose his pious warbling when it comes in conflict with the donors)

Faith in climate change is not a doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church. If Francis publicly proclaimed his preference for Pepsi over Coca-Cola, Catholics would not be obliged to drink it.

But here's the thing. Frannie isn't just saying "oh it would be super nice if we built some solar panels Smiley Smiley" - he's making it out that Catholics have a moral imperative to fight Climate Change.

What makes that different from previous Catholic indictments to fight the scourge of abortion, which Jeb and Rick so stridently support?

The Catholic position on abortion was dogmatically and infallibly defined in Evangelium Vitae. We won't know if the new encyclical does the same for climate change until we can actually read it.

The Pope's authority to teach infallible doctrine ex cathedra only extends to issues of morality and faith but his statements about humanity's duty to protect the environment could be interpreted as a moral teaching and therefore one that binds Catholics. I think that this has always been a tacitly held belief by Catholics, though. I believe that Bush, Santorum etc. would only be in conflict with Church teaching if he publicly stated that the environment wasn't worth preserving.

The encyclical won't. It can't really and the reason is because the entire concept of global warming is fundamentally a scientific question. The pope will almost undoubtedly say that the scientific consensus is that global warming is real and cause by carbon emissions. We may go so far as to say that given this consensus we have a moral duty to act. But an infallible declaration of man-caused global warning would be a radical departure of the Catholic teachings on faith and reason, and that of science in general. The Catholic Church teaches that faith and reason both lead us to the truth, and that science and the faith are not contradictory. If the Pope were to start making dogmatic decrees about science the entire framework would become incredibly messed up. It will likely be similar to how it is sinful to drop an anvil on someone's head even though the Catholic Church makes no dogmatic declaration about the existence of gravity. I suspect the Pope will also have some language about how science must be open to debate etc etc. The leaked draft was 191 pages long so he'll probably say pretty much everything related to the topic consistent with his views on the social effects of global warming and the Catholic Church's teachings.

As for the quotes here, Jeb's is awful theology and Santorum's is coherent and reasonable.

The scientific dependent aspects of this are like taking a position on whether certain forms of birth control are abortiaficient as opposed to being against birth control for reasons having to do with theology of the body or being against abortion due to sanctity of life (not that the scientific validity of the the statements would be necessarily similar).
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