Paul's New Tax Plan

[Orthogonian Society Treasurer]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4oK3j9sdKY

New spot on the tax plan.

[King]

What a joke plan. 0% for $50,000 and 14.5% for above $50,000. Eliminate FICA aka Eliminate Medicare and Social Security? 14.5%? Why did he pull that number out of his ass? Why not 15%? Or 12.3%?

Also, he talks about job creation but then mentions how accountants will be unnecessary. There are 1.3 million tax accountants in the United States. What are they going to be retrained to do for a living? How are their families going to survive in the meantime?

And 2,000,000 jobs over 4 years. That's over 40,000 a month! Amazing!

[ElectionsGuy]

Sounds great, however the next thing he needs to do is specify what he'll cut as President. He can't just eliminate the FICA taxes and implement a flat tax while keeping the huge amount of government spending we have.

[bedstuy]

This person estimates that Rand Paul's plan would reduce tax revenue by about one third or $1.2 trillion dollars in FY 2016.  How could you ever responsibly reduce spending that much?

I mean, let's say you're generous, and we'll allow a $200 billion increase in the deficit.  That's another $1 trillion to cut from the budget.  

How does one cut the Federal budget $1 trillion?

Hmmm.  It's impossible without massive social security and Medicare benefit cuts.  That's my intuition at least.  Try running on a massive social security and Medicare benefit cut.  Please Republicans, please try that.  

[RINO Tom]

Sounds great, however the next thing he needs to do is specify what he'll cut as President. He can't just eliminate the FICA taxes and implement a flat tax while keeping the huge amount of government spending we have.

Unfortunately, he'll shy away from cutting defense spending because of the primary he's about to run in.

[Orthogonian Society Treasurer]

This person estimates that Rand Paul's plan would reduce tax revenue by about one third or $1.2 trillion dollars in FY 2016.  How could you ever responsibly reduce spending that much?

I mean, let's say you're generous, and we'll allow a $200 billion increase in the deficit.  That's another $1 trillion to cut from the budget.  

How does one cut the Federal budget $1 trillion?

Hmmm.  It's impossible without massive social security and Medicare benefit cuts.  That's my intuition at least.  Try running on a massive social security and Medicare benefit cut.  Please Republicans, please try that.  

Incidentally, Ron Paul's 2012 campaign budget included cutting federal expenditures by one trillion during the first year. I imagine Rand wouldn't go that far but the outlines are probably similar.

http://c3244172.r72.cf0.rackcdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/RestoreAmericaPlan.pdf

[DC Al Fine]

The good: Standardizes taxes on different kinds of income.

The bad: Too flat, although I must point out, it's not really a flat tax, so much as its a two bracket tax plan.

The ugly: Allowing firms to expense capital items like buildings and equipment. Are you f[inks]ing kidding me?!?!

[Free Bird]

Okay. I must ask. What is this forum's hatred of rich people? What is wrong with people making their own money by honest toil and keeping it?

Nobody likes taxes per se.  We all hate paying taxes, but it's necessary.  The government needs a ton of money to operate, provides services and public benefits.  Thus, there's the question, who pays?

Democrats think rich people should pay more for several reasons.

1.  They have more money.  It's impossible to get $1 million in tax revenue from someone who brings in $25k a year.  So, it's necessary to bring in the necessary revenue.

2.  Money means relatively less to rich people.  The difference in happiness and resources between $1 million in assets and $800k in assets is smaller than $2k and $1k.  We should be more worried about the needy than people who have all of their basic needs taken care of several times over.

3.  Rich people hoard money, while poor people spend money and spur consumption because they need to spend almost all of their income to live.

4.  Basic utilitarian principles: The greatest good for the greatest number.  There are more poor and middle class people than rich people.

5.  Society works better with a more equal distribution of wealth.  Just think of it this way, there are talented, potentially productive children of all income levels.  But, wealth is going to distort that.  Talented, hardworking poor kids are going to be handicapped forever by growing up poor, while lazy, untalented rich kids will advance in society.  We'll miss out on the productivity of the poor kids while we suffer through the incompetence of the unfairly rewarded rich kids.

6.  Nobody earns a ton of money on their own, the famous Elizabeth Warren point.  The economy is interdependent.  The CEO relies on the poor workers here and abroad, the infrastructure built by the government, the public services, the schools to train their workers, the court system to enforce their contracts, etc.  We're all in this together.  The Ayn Randian idea that rich people are just better is just a myth created by sociopaths and propagated by the rich and powerful to fool gullible men who flatter themselves to think they'll end up CEO of Exxon someday.

Thanks for not simply snarking this off.

The income tax only brings in $152 billion a year, which could easily be cut if we eliminated unconstitutional programs. A higher rate is a drop in the bucket. I feel an income tax as a whole in unneeded. This is because judging people on net income is too black and white. It is the same mistake Sanders makes. Not all rich people hoard or manipulate money, so taxing them like that is foolish. You can weed out the hoarders by focusing on the capital gains tax, which wouldn't punish the honest rich people. I like what Jesse Ventura said. Why should someone living in a studio apartment with a beat up Volkswagen that makes a million a year pay the same as some guy with 50 sports cars? With a national sales tax, the latter would ACTUALLY be taxed like a rich person. The idea of income redistribution is also foolish. It defies what America was founded on. It causes the rich to get poorer so that the poor can be a little better off, and that is simply divisive. A higher capital gains tax ensures that the rich people who made it honestly are REWARDED, not punished for their success.

[Ebsy]

It's a good thing we don't craft policy around your feelings Free Bird. Also, the personal income tax brings in way, way, way more than $152 million, more like 1.4 trillion dollars, or just under half of all taxes collected by the federal government. You could never raise enough money from capital gains taxes to offset the losses from eliminating the personal income tax. Like, I don't even really know what to say beyond that other than asking if you and I are living in the same universe.

[Free Bird]

It's a good thing we don't craft policy around your feelings Free Bird. Also, the personal income tax brings in way, way, way more than $152 million, more like 1.4 trillion dollars, or just under half of all taxes collected by the federal government. You could never raise enough money from capital gains taxes to offset the losses from eliminating the personal income tax. Like, I don't even really know what to say beyond that other than asking if you and I are living in the same universe.

Caught me. I live in Alpha Centauri. I must have looked at a dated statistic.

[bedstuy]

Thanks for not simply snarking this off.

The income tax only brings in $152 billion a year, which could easily be cut if we eliminated unconstitutional programs. A higher rate is a drop in the bucket. I feel an income tax as a whole in unneeded. This is because judging people on net income is too black and white. It is the same mistake Sanders makes. Not all rich people hoard or manipulate money, so taxing them like that is foolish. You can weed out the hoarders by focusing on the capital gains tax, which wouldn't punish the honest rich people. I like what Jesse Ventura said. Why should someone living in a studio apartment with a beat up Volkswagen that makes a million a year pay the same as some guy with 50 sports cars? With a national sales tax, the latter would ACTUALLY be taxed like a rich person. The idea of income redistribution is also foolish. It defies what America was founded on. It causes the rich to get poorer so that the poor can be a little better off, and that is simply divisive. A higher capital gains tax ensures that the rich people who made it honestly are REWARDED, not punished for their success.

A few points:

As pointed out before, that stat is wildly incorrect.  $1.4 trillion is from income taxes, not counting things like FICA,

Why are you insisting that taxes are a moral judgment on the person who pays them?

Rich people, by definition, hoard money more than poor people. 

Why isn't it divisive when the rich get rich off the backs of the poor?

[Free Bird]

Honestly I don't see how anyone can say that this hurts the poor. The first $50,000 is exempt. And taxes ARE a judgment. It punishes success more or less.

[bedstuy]

Honestly I don't see how anyone can say that this hurts the poor. The first $50,000 is exempt. And taxes ARE a judgment. It punishes success more or less.

Imagine a senior citizen who currently gets social security check that amounts to $16k a year.  They don't pay income taxes. 

Under this system, let's say their benefit is cut to $5k to pay for the tax cut.  I would call that hurting.

Imagine a poor family who pays payroll taxes but no yearly income tax.  Under this system, they get their food stamps cut, their Medicaid cut and a variety of other services paired back.  And, their state government raises taxes to make up for the giant loss in Federal government services.  Their tax rate might not change at the Federal level, but they're poorer.

And, no, taxes are not a punishment.  A fine is a punishment.  Everyone needs to pay taxes.

[pbrower2a]

Okay. I must ask. What is this forum's hatred of rich people? What is wrong with people making their own money by honest toil and keeping it?

1. Much of the wealth in America is inherited. It's about keeping what Daddy or Grandpa made and living well off it without doing real work while ensuring that most who do the real work endure poverty.

2. The rich have a disproportionate influence upon political life, and they generally look out for their interests at the expense of everyone else.

3. The rich get a rap for supporting economic and political hierarchy at the expense of democracy. On an individual basis such may be untrue, but on the whole it seems true to most of us.

4. We all envy the economic security that the rich have decided is theirs alone as all others are to live under fear as a motivator.


Plutocracy is not freedom.
   

[King]

Honestly I don't see how anyone can say that this hurts the poor. The first $50,000 is exempt. And taxes ARE a judgment. It punishes success more or less.

It hurts the poor by creating a worse economy with no security for them. Taxation is only one aspect to a person's wealth and security.

[Ebsy]

Sounds great, however the next thing he needs to do is specify what he'll cut as President. He can't just eliminate the FICA taxes and implement a flat tax while keeping the huge amount of government spending we have.

He's already released that plan since like 2011. He said he would cut spending from everywhere. It's also better to avoid talking about spending cuts until after he gets elected

LMAO

[King]

It's also better to avoid talking about spending cuts until after he gets elected

Okay, Mitt.

[Free Bird]

Okay. I must ask. What is this forum's hatred of rich people? What is wrong with people making their own money by honest toil and keeping it?

1. Much of the wealth in America is inherited. It's about keeping what Daddy or Grandpa made and living well off it without doing real work while ensuring that most who do the real work endure poverty.

2. The rich have a disproportionate influence upon political life, and they generally look out for their interests at the expense of everyone else.

3. The rich get a rap for supporting economic and political hierarchy at the expense of democracy. On an individual basis such may be untrue, but on the whole it seems true to most of us.

4. We all envy the economic security that the rich have decided is theirs alone as all others are to live under fear as a motivator.


Plutocracy is not freedom.
   

You can deal with all you said with the estate tax and Wolf Pac Amendment

[bedstuy]

This plan repeals the estate tax completely, no?