Haley Barbour: CSA flag "didn't have a thing in the world to do" with shooting
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  Haley Barbour: CSA flag "didn't have a thing in the world to do" with shooting
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Author Topic: Haley Barbour: CSA flag "didn't have a thing in the world to do" with shooting  (Read 2453 times)
JRP1994
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« on: June 20, 2015, 09:21:15 PM »

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/church-killings-ignite-furor-anew-over-sc-capitols-confederate-flag/2015/06/20/a0fb7bba-1789-11e5-89f3-61410da94eb1_story.html?postshare=1401434852993082

"Mississippi is now the only state that still has a confederate flag as part of its state banner. Former Mississippi governor and former Republican National Committee chairman Haley Barbour said that connecting the shooting to the confederate flag is “beyond stretching.”

“The flag didn’t have a thing in the world to do with what happened,” Barbour said. “It is part of history, just like George Washington, Thomas Jefferson and Andrew Jackson, who were all slave owners. Are we now going to change the name of the Washington Monument, too?”
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Famous Mortimer
WillipsBrighton
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« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2015, 09:22:21 PM »

Even if it has nothing to do with the shooting, it's still a bad thing.
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Atlas Has Shrugged
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« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2015, 09:23:19 PM »

Even if it has nothing to do with the shooting, it's still a bad thing.
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WVdemocrat
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« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2015, 09:25:29 PM »

I love how he draws the founders into this.

The monument is called the Washington Monument, not the Slave Owner Monument.

That's the difference. You can't think of the Confederacy as "the CSA, the states' rights movement," you have to think of it as "the CSA, the rebellion to preserve white supremacy." That's the immediate connotation.

Washington was much more than just a slave owner, but the Confederacy wasn't much more than a very well organized white supremacy confederation.
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RFayette
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« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2015, 09:28:36 PM »

I agree with Mitt and Jeb on this.  Take the Confederate flag down; move it to the state museum, and stop defending it.  

Most every black person views it as a symbol of hate.  Respect their wishes and take 'em down.
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user12345
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« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2015, 10:01:22 PM »

Give me a fu**ing break. This flag, and what it stood for had everything to do with why this terrorist killed these innocent people.
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Indy Texas
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« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2015, 10:32:19 PM »

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But the Confederacy and secession weren't about slavery at all. It was all about Muh States' Rights and Muh Tariffs and Muh Freedoms and Muh Whatnot.

As Ta-Nehisi Coates said,

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Mr. Reactionary
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« Reply #7 on: June 20, 2015, 10:51:07 PM »

What if they were to just replace the flag in S.C. with this?



I mean, unlike the battle flag in question, this ACTUALLY is an official Confederate Flag. The battle flag has become the de facto redneck durkerdoo flag as well as the de facto KKK flag. That is the flag that has cultural connotations and purportedly hurts feelings because it is recognizable. But almost all of the arguments to ban it because "erhmagad treason!" should actually be focused on those flags which represented the government. In contrast to the recognizable battle flag, I strongly doubt that most people would be offended by this merely by seeing it. It looks an awful lot like the Texas flag after all.

Or if its bad because blah blah racist ... how about if only some States are allowed to fly it at civil war memorials? During the initial secession crisis Virginia voted not to secede. The Virginia government said, don't march troops through our State or we WILL secede. Lincoln disagreed with that proposition. Virginia then voted a second time and this time voted to secede. Doesn't sound so black and white (terrible pun I know) to me. I mean seriously, condensing a war down to "blah blah white supremacy" is pretty intellectually dishonest considering most white NORTHERNERS were also white supremacists. It's like saying WWI was solely about some Serb killing some Austrian.

Cue name-calling and race-baiting in 3 ... 2 ... 1 ...
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WVdemocrat
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« Reply #8 on: June 20, 2015, 11:25:16 PM »

What if they were to just replace the flag in S.C. with this?



I mean, unlike the battle flag in question, this ACTUALLY is an official Confederate Flag. The battle flag has become the de facto redneck durkerdoo flag as well as the de facto KKK flag. That is the flag that has cultural connotations and purportedly hurts feelings because it is recognizable. But almost all of the arguments to ban it because "erhmagad treason!" should actually be focused on those flags which represented the government. In contrast to the recognizable battle flag, I strongly doubt that most people would be offended by this merely by seeing it. It looks an awful lot like the Texas flag after all.

Or if its bad because blah blah racist ... how about if only some States are allowed to fly it at civil war memorials? During the initial secession crisis Virginia voted not to secede. The Virginia government said, don't march troops through our State or we WILL secede. Lincoln disagreed with that proposition. Virginia then voted a second time and this time voted to secede. Doesn't sound so black and white (terrible pun I know) to me. I mean seriously, condensing a war down to "blah blah white supremacy" is pretty intellectually dishonest considering most white NORTHERNERS were also white supremacists. It's like saying WWI was solely about some Serb killing some Austrian.

Cue name-calling and race-baiting in 3 ... 2 ... 1 ...

Wouldn't it be a lot easier for everyone just to get rid of Confederate flags on official government buildings?
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Indy Texas
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« Reply #9 on: June 20, 2015, 11:37:30 PM »

What if they were to just replace the flag in S.C. with this?



I mean, unlike the battle flag in question, this ACTUALLY is an official Confederate Flag. The battle flag has become the de facto redneck durkerdoo flag as well as the de facto KKK flag. That is the flag that has cultural connotations and purportedly hurts feelings because it is recognizable. But almost all of the arguments to ban it because "erhmagad treason!" should actually be focused on those flags which represented the government. In contrast to the recognizable battle flag, I strongly doubt that most people would be offended by this merely by seeing it. It looks an awful lot like the Texas flag after all.

Or if its bad because blah blah racist ... how about if only some States are allowed to fly it at civil war memorials? During the initial secession crisis Virginia voted not to secede. The Virginia government said, don't march troops through our State or we WILL secede. Lincoln disagreed with that proposition. Virginia then voted a second time and this time voted to secede. Doesn't sound so black and white (terrible pun I know) to me. I mean seriously, condensing a war down to "blah blah white supremacy" is pretty intellectually dishonest considering most white NORTHERNERS were also white supremacists. It's like saying WWI was solely about some Serb killing some Austrian.

Cue name-calling and race-baiting in 3 ... 2 ... 1 ...

Lincoln disagreed because Virginia was a part of the United States, so of course federal troops had the right to march through the state to quell an internal insurrection. State governments have no right to interfere with that. If a country cannot move its own troops around its own territory, then why have a military at all?

No one is claiming mid-19th century Northerners had "modern" views on black people. But believing black people are inferior to white people, while a reprehensible view, is still not as egregious as believing they can be bought and sold and worked like cattle, as mid-19th century Southerners did.
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shua
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« Reply #10 on: June 20, 2015, 11:47:40 PM »

What if they were to just replace the flag in S.C. with this?



I mean, unlike the battle flag in question, this ACTUALLY is an official Confederate Flag. The battle flag has become the de facto redneck durkerdoo flag as well as the de facto KKK flag. That is the flag that has cultural connotations and purportedly hurts feelings because it is recognizable. But almost all of the arguments to ban it because "erhmagad treason!" should actually be focused on those flags which represented the government. In contrast to the recognizable battle flag, I strongly doubt that most people would be offended by this merely by seeing it. It looks an awful lot like the Texas flag after all.

Or if its bad because blah blah racist ... how about if only some States are allowed to fly it at civil war memorials? During the initial secession crisis Virginia voted not to secede. The Virginia government said, don't march troops through our State or we WILL secede. Lincoln disagreed with that proposition. Virginia then voted a second time and this time voted to secede. Doesn't sound so black and white (terrible pun I know) to me. I mean seriously, condensing a war down to "blah blah white supremacy" is pretty intellectually dishonest considering most white NORTHERNERS were also white supremacists. It's like saying WWI was solely about some Serb killing some Austrian.

Cue name-calling and race-baiting in 3 ... 2 ... 1 ...

Wouldn't it be a lot easier for everyone just to get rid of Confederate flags on official government buildings?

It isn't quite on a building.

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WVdemocrat
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« Reply #11 on: June 20, 2015, 11:50:23 PM »

What if they were to just replace the flag in S.C. with this?



I mean, unlike the battle flag in question, this ACTUALLY is an official Confederate Flag. The battle flag has become the de facto redneck durkerdoo flag as well as the de facto KKK flag. That is the flag that has cultural connotations and purportedly hurts feelings because it is recognizable. But almost all of the arguments to ban it because "erhmagad treason!" should actually be focused on those flags which represented the government. In contrast to the recognizable battle flag, I strongly doubt that most people would be offended by this merely by seeing it. It looks an awful lot like the Texas flag after all.

Or if its bad because blah blah racist ... how about if only some States are allowed to fly it at civil war memorials? During the initial secession crisis Virginia voted not to secede. The Virginia government said, don't march troops through our State or we WILL secede. Lincoln disagreed with that proposition. Virginia then voted a second time and this time voted to secede. Doesn't sound so black and white (terrible pun I know) to me. I mean seriously, condensing a war down to "blah blah white supremacy" is pretty intellectually dishonest considering most white NORTHERNERS were also white supremacists. It's like saying WWI was solely about some Serb killing some Austrian.

Cue name-calling and race-baiting in 3 ... 2 ... 1 ...

Wouldn't it be a lot easier for everyone just to get rid of Confederate flags on official government buildings?

It isn't quite on a building.



Close enough. Tongue
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Adam Griffin
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« Reply #12 on: June 21, 2015, 01:58:32 AM »

Cue name-calling and race-baiting in 3 ... 2 ... 1 ...

If you find yourself accurately predicting what everybody is going to say about what comes out of your mouth after you've said it, then maybe it says more about you than it says about them?

Just because the racist sh**t you say is mockingly referred to as such by yourself before anyone else gets the chance to comment doesn't mean that it doesn't apply. It's like your kind thinks they're playing some sort of weird hybrid game of musical chairs and tag; "TAG! I'M NOT IT!".
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Famous Mortimer
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« Reply #13 on: June 21, 2015, 03:04:42 AM »

What if they were to just replace the flag in S.C. with this?



I mean, unlike the battle flag in question, this ACTUALLY is an official Confederate Flag. The battle flag has become the de facto redneck durkerdoo flag as well as the de facto KKK flag. That is the flag that has cultural connotations and purportedly hurts feelings because it is recognizable. But almost all of the arguments to ban it because "erhmagad treason!" should actually be focused on those flags which represented the government. In contrast to the recognizable battle flag, I strongly doubt that most people would be offended by this merely by seeing it. It looks an awful lot like the Texas flag after all.

Or if its bad because blah blah racist ... how about if only some States are allowed to fly it at civil war memorials? During the initial secession crisis Virginia voted not to secede. The Virginia government said, don't march troops through our State or we WILL secede. Lincoln disagreed with that proposition. Virginia then voted a second time and this time voted to secede. Doesn't sound so black and white (terrible pun I know) to me. I mean seriously, condensing a war down to "blah blah white supremacy" is pretty intellectually dishonest considering most white NORTHERNERS were also white supremacists. It's like saying WWI was solely about some Serb killing some Austrian.

Cue name-calling and race-baiting in 3 ... 2 ... 1 ...

What a bizarre comment. We don't want any flag associated primarily with slave holding to be flown on government property. It doesn't matter if it's the official slave holder flag that most people don't recognize or the more well known unofficial slave holder flag. Any slave holder flag is bad.
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Torie
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« Reply #14 on: June 21, 2015, 08:15:20 AM »
« Edited: June 21, 2015, 11:42:11 AM by Torie »

I suspect Barbour is right, but who knows? And the thing is, is that the flag should not be taken down because of an unproven link that it pushed a psychotic over the edge. It should be taken down because it is a symbol of racial repression. So to me, the context of taking it down now is unfortunate. It would have been better to say, have taken it down on some Martin Luther King day.

Anyway, it should be taken down. It should have been taken down decades ago. In fact it should never have been put up in the first place.
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H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY
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« Reply #15 on: June 21, 2015, 09:47:40 AM »

The guy had tons of pictures with the flag. I think it's safe to say it played a role.
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Mr. Reactionary
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« Reply #16 on: June 21, 2015, 09:52:23 AM »

Cue name-calling and race-baiting in 3 ... 2 ... 1 ...

Just because the racist sh**t you say is mockingly referred to as such by yourself before anyone else gets the chance to comment doesn't mean that it doesn't apply.

Me: "Hey, maybe we should recognize that history isn't just a bumper sticker slogan."
Socialist from Georgia: "Racist! Erhmagad! RACIST!"

What a compelling argument.

The far-left is so predictable.

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Rockefeller GOP
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« Reply #17 on: June 21, 2015, 10:52:44 AM »

That flag is trash.  If the North were on the losing end, I wouldn't fly their flag from 150 years ago to commemorate treasonous sh*theads that I have no connection to just because they were from my geographic area ... There were lots of other treasonous losers we don't even give the time of day.
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Zioneer
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« Reply #18 on: June 21, 2015, 11:31:29 AM »

Cue name-calling and race-baiting in 3 ... 2 ... 1 ...

Just because the racist sh**t you say is mockingly referred to as such by yourself before anyone else gets the chance to comment doesn't mean that it doesn't apply.

Me: "Hey, maybe we should recognize that history isn't just a bumper sticker slogan."
Socialist from Georgia: "Racist! Erhmagad! RACIST!"

What a compelling argument.

The far-left is so predictable.



History might not be a bumper sticker slogan, but the Battle Flag was very clearly a symbol of intense and hateful white supremacy, both in the war, and during the Civil Rights era (when it was a symbol of Southerners being unwilling to concede even the slightest amount of power from their white supremacy).

It was a symbol of treason and hate then and now. No public, tax-payer funded place should have it as a high-flying flag. And don't say "well it's on the memorial", for one thing, that was a cowardly cop-out to still have it as a noticeable symbol, and why should Confederates have a war memorial anyway?

In any case, the battle flag is a symbol of hate, and there's no reason to fly it at a public institution unless said institution is embracing the hate.
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The Other Castro
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« Reply #19 on: June 21, 2015, 12:02:44 PM »

The Confederate Flag is a part of history and should be preserved, but there's a reason why Nazi Flags are found in Holocaust museums while monuments to the founders are proudly displayed.
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Adam Griffin
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« Reply #20 on: June 21, 2015, 06:35:03 PM »

Me: "Hey, maybe we should recognize that history isn't just a bumper sticker slogan."
Socialist from Georgia: "Racist! Erhmagad! RACIST!"

What a compelling argument.

The far-left is so predictable.

The same can be said about you reactionaries, who rush to wrap yourselves in a flag that you know damn good and well has no purpose existing in this country outside of a museum. "Heritage not hate", "it's about history" - bullsh**t.

People who love history and want to publicly display it for sentimental reasons have literally centuries of history from which to sample, but why is that so many Southerners and conservatives want to latch onto a relatively insignificant 4-year life-span of a defunct country that didn't win, didn't fight for a noble cause and didn't contribute an iota of positive significance to America as we know it? Hell, its brief existence is still creating negative effects for the country as a whole. It's not about history for you: it's about nostalgia and a longing for a by-gone era that embodied the warped values that still live in your hearts.

Why not embrace the Revolutionary War? The War of 1812? The Mexican-American War? World War I? World War II? Among the civilian masses in the South, the only war and the only flag that have a cult following is the one from the war that was the most noble in nature - but for the side that was empirically disgusting.

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Pandaguineapig
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« Reply #21 on: June 21, 2015, 09:16:14 PM »

Why didn't they stop using the flag when they lost the war? You don't see people in Germany flying swastikas to show "German pride"
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Adam Griffin
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« Reply #22 on: June 21, 2015, 10:09:41 PM »

Why didn't they stop using the flag when they lost the war? You don't see people in Germany flying swastikas to show "German pride"

That's in large part because Germany had the balls to ban that sh**t like any civilized society should.
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Pandaguineapig
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« Reply #23 on: June 21, 2015, 10:17:10 PM »

Why didn't they stop using the flag when they lost the war? You don't see people in Germany flying swastikas to show "German pride"

That's in large part because Germany had the balls to ban that sh**t like any civilized society should.
Hopefully We can shame these states into joining a post-civil war society
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shua
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« Reply #24 on: June 21, 2015, 11:57:18 PM »

Me: "Hey, maybe we should recognize that history isn't just a bumper sticker slogan."
Socialist from Georgia: "Racist! Erhmagad! RACIST!"

What a compelling argument.

The far-left is so predictable.

The same can be said about you reactionaries, who rush to wrap yourselves in a flag that you know damn good and well has no purpose existing in this country outside of a museum. "Heritage not hate", "it's about history" - bullsh**t.

People who love history and want to publicly display it for sentimental reasons have literally centuries of history from which to sample, but why is that so many Southerners and conservatives want to latch onto a relatively insignificant 4-year life-span of a defunct country that didn't win, didn't fight for a noble cause and didn't contribute an iota of positive significance to America as we know it? Hell, its brief existence is still creating negative effects for the country as a whole. It's not about history for you: it's about nostalgia and a longing for a by-gone era that embodied the warped values that still live in your hearts.

Why not embrace the Revolutionary War? The War of 1812? The Mexican-American War? World War I? World War II? Among the civilian masses in the South, the only war and the only flag that have a cult following is the one from the war that was the most noble in nature - but for the side that was empirically disgusting.

Is a war in which maybe half of a million died in a region of 12 million and led to massive social upheaval comparable to anything else in American history in its impact upon a people other than slavery itself and Indian removal?   
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