Have we talked about how this sudden removal of Confederate stuff is a ruse?
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  Have we talked about how this sudden removal of Confederate stuff is a ruse?
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Author Topic: Have we talked about how this sudden removal of Confederate stuff is a ruse?  (Read 3989 times)
Adam Griffin
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« on: June 24, 2015, 07:46:18 AM »
« edited: June 25, 2015, 09:56:10 PM by RG Griff »

I'm not sure if it's been covered or if there is a prevailing opinion, but it seems too all coordinated that practically every Southern state is suddenly removing Confederate items from their stategrounds and in other areas (license plates and the like).


States where government-backed pushes to remove Confederate propaganda from the public sphere are being advocated for by the majority party



Now, I'd like to believe that everybody in the South has just had a collective wake-up call, but the reality is that popular opinion on this hasn't changed one bit. The Confederate flag likely still has majority support in every Southern state except maybe Virginia. Those of us who know the South know that it only reacts to "progress" this quickly if it comes in the form of secession.

So, is there a direct effort from the RNC being pushed down the chain of command to get rid of this in preparation for the 2016 election so that it won't be an issue? To see mainstream and Tea Party Republican leaders act so swiftly in unison - with Democrats - just doesn't make sense to me without a narrative involving a heavy-handed effort from on high.
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ElectionsGuy
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« Reply #1 on: June 24, 2015, 07:57:12 AM »

Its already in the political talk, so issues like this spread from state to state (remember the religious freedom bills spread?). Also, there is a possibility that the R's are doing this to get silly shenanigans out of the way for 2016. They don't want to appear to devoted to stupid social issues that D's could pick on them for.

It would be pretty ironic if Republicans defended the Confederate flag, I mean their party literally fought against the interests of the Confederacy.
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Mehmentum
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« Reply #2 on: June 24, 2015, 08:37:42 AM »
« Edited: June 24, 2015, 09:06:00 AM by Mehmentum »

http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/before-charleston-not-many-people-wanted-to-take-down-the-confederate-flag/

While most Southerners expressed indifference to the confederate flag before the shooting, in the wake of the shooting, nearly 2/3 of registered voters in South Carolina supported taking down the flag.  

The shooting has clearly caused a sea change in public perceptions about this issue.  While I suspect very few of the flag's supporters have changed their minds, many of the people who didn't pay attention to it have now realized how abhorrent it is.
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ilikeverin
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« Reply #3 on: June 24, 2015, 09:48:08 AM »

http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/before-charleston-not-many-people-wanted-to-take-down-the-confederate-flag/

While most Southerners expressed indifference to the confederate flag before the shooting, in the wake of the shooting, nearly 2/3 of registered voters in South Carolina supported taking down the flag. 

The shooting has clearly caused a sea change in public perceptions about this issue.  While I suspect very few of the flag's supporters have changed their minds, many of the people who didn't pay attention to it have now realized how abhorrent it is.

No, that's a national poll, not a South Carolina poll.  However, polls of the states in question also seem to be narrowly in favor of removing the Confederate symbols.
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Joe Republic
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« Reply #4 on: June 24, 2015, 09:57:15 AM »

It blows my mind that once again we have a horrific mass shooting, and while the rest of the world shakes their head at us again because they already know exactly what the problem is, our own solution is... to take down some flags?
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Torie
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« Reply #5 on: June 24, 2015, 10:06:56 AM »
« Edited: June 24, 2015, 10:21:34 AM by Torie »

It blows my mind that once again we have a horrific mass shooting, and while the rest of the world shakes their head at us again because they already know exactly what the problem is, our own solution is... to take down some flags?

When a politician is faced with the choice of 1) doing the right thing, but ending their political career, or 2) not doing the right thing, and continuing their political career, which box do you think most of them check?  There are just too many single issue NRA type voters out there in Pub primaries to allow for a reasonable discussion on intelligent and reasonable gun regulations to make it more difficult for criminals and psychotics to possess guns, along with a few who normally vote Dem, but won't for a "gun grabber" Dem, that intimidates a fair number of Dem politicians as well. But then you already knew all of this.

It's just an emotional issue, that trumps all reason. The video is over the fascist radical gun grabbing proposal  to ban carrying guns into public buildings in Hudson. Oh the horror, the horror! The first guy in the video by the way, is alderman John Friedman, who just got busted for pot possession. He likes his weed! Tongue He and I often cross swords, but do work together on some issues, such as the Hudson weighted voting issue.
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King
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« Reply #6 on: June 24, 2015, 10:42:36 AM »

It blows my mind that once again we have a horrific mass shooting, and while the rest of the world shakes their head at us again because they already know exactly what the problem is, our own solution is... to take down some flags?

While it probably won't do much about gun violence, I think getting rid of Confederate culture in this country is still a good thing. We need to stop being nice to rednecks and their garbage. We never should've abandoned the tone of Reconstruction in the South.

It's sad that it took this event to spring this series of events, but I'm not disappointed that it's happening.
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Indy Texas
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« Reply #7 on: June 24, 2015, 10:49:13 AM »

Maybe what we're seeing is a belated "de-Stalinization" of the South. Nowadays, most of the people who in earlier times likely would have defended Confederate symbols and their legacy root their "Southernness" in conservative Christianity and generic "Red State" culture, anyway.

Whether the current disfavor the Confederate battle flag seems to be in is a blip driven by recent events, or part of a long-term cultural trend, the decision by governments and by businesses like Walmart and Amazon to purge it from public view makes the question irrelevant. The rebel flag has officially been put on the "Do Not Touch" shelf next to the Nazi swastika. Other countries have faced similar dilemmas. Part of the reason the Dutch no longer use their historical blue-white-orange tricolor (their flag is red, white and blue) is that it became associated with Nazi collaborator groups during World War II. The Ulster Banner no longer flies on any official basis in Northern Ireland because of its links to bloody sectarianism.

When I was little, my family owned a Chevy Suburban, and the shop my parents had it serviced at also sold truck parts and accessories. I remember wandering around their showroom while we waited for our car and seeing a multitude of merchandise featuring the rebel flag: license plates, stickers, decals, seat covers, floor mats. This wasn't out in the boonies. This was in an inner suburb of the fourth largest city in the country. Houston is a very different place now, and so is the rest of the former Confederacy.
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King
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« Reply #8 on: June 24, 2015, 11:15:27 AM »

Other countries have faced similar dilemmas. Part of the reason the Dutch no longer use their historical blue-white-orange tricolor (their flag is red, white and blue) is that it became associated with Nazi collaborator groups during World War II.

Good post for the most part but I'm pretty sure the Dutch don't use orange on their flag because orange dye fades with sun exposure.
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Indy Texas
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« Reply #9 on: June 24, 2015, 11:17:09 AM »

Other countries have faced similar dilemmas. Part of the reason the Dutch no longer use their historical blue-white-orange tricolor (their flag is red, white and blue) is that it became associated with Nazi collaborator groups during World War II.

Good post for the most part but I'm pretty sure the Dutch don't use orange on their flag because orange dye fades with sun exposure.

I'm sure that was the original reason, but it's kind of a non-issue nowadays with synthetic dyes. (Pre-1994 South Africa didn't seem to have any problems having orange on their flag.)
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RFayette
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« Reply #10 on: June 24, 2015, 11:21:01 AM »

Maybe what we're seeing is a belated "de-Stalinization" of the South. Nowadays, most of the people who in earlier times likely would have defended Confederate symbols and their legacy root their "Southernness" in conservative Christianity and generic "Red State" culture, anyway.

This hits the nail on the head.  More historically GOP states like Arizona and Oklahoma are becoming closer to states like Alabama as there is a gradual de-emphasis on "Dixieland" and more on "Christian, conservative, American."  
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« Reply #11 on: June 24, 2015, 12:00:43 PM »

Other countries have faced similar dilemmas. Part of the reason the Dutch no longer use their historical blue-white-orange tricolor (their flag is red, white and blue) is that it became associated with Nazi collaborator groups during World War II.

Good post for the most part but I'm pretty sure the Dutch don't use orange on their flag because orange dye fades with sun exposure.
Interesting, since the Dutch tend to turn orange with sun exposure.
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Small Business Owner of Any Repute
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« Reply #12 on: June 24, 2015, 12:15:48 PM »

So, is there a direct effort from the RNC being pushed down the chain of command to get rid of this in preparation for the 2016 election so that it won't be an issue? To see mainstream and Tea Party Republican leaders act so swiftly in unison - with Democrats - just doesn't make sense to me without a narrative involving a heavy-handed effort from on high.

Yes, from what I've heard, this is a case of Republican leadership coming down hard that the party needs to move beyond this. No Republican can win in 2016 if they're getting hammered with questions about this dumb treasonous flag of a slave-holding elite.
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The Mikado
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« Reply #13 on: June 24, 2015, 03:40:24 PM »

A lot of people in the South today, including in the Republican Party in the South, are either Northern transplants who moved south in the 1960s-1980s or the children of such people, and don't really have the ancestral connection to the old Stars and Bars* as people whose ancestors have been in Dixie for 200 years do. To a lot of people, including right wing businessmen and such, the Confederate flag is an embarrassment and "bad for business."

*Yes, I know that the X-shaped flag is not the Stars and Bars, shut up. Just because you're one of the few people who knows that the X-shaped battle flag isn't the actual flag of the Confederacy doesn't mean you need to pedantically correct everything.
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Indy Texas
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« Reply #14 on: June 24, 2015, 04:02:28 PM »

The Confederate flag behind taken down from its pole on the grounds of the Alabama State Capitol earlier today:

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shua
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« Reply #15 on: June 24, 2015, 04:06:42 PM »

It blows my mind that once again we have a horrific mass shooting, and while the rest of the world shakes their head at us again because they already know exactly what the problem is, our own solution is... to take down some flags?

I guess we could have symbolic gun control legislation instead.  But we aren't going to see pistols banned.
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Joe Republic
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« Reply #16 on: June 24, 2015, 05:47:05 PM »

It blows my mind that once again we have a horrific mass shooting, and while the rest of the world shakes their head at us again because they already know exactly what the problem is, our own solution is... to take down some flags?

I guess we could have symbolic gun control legislation instead.  But we aren't going to see pistols banned.

Which is what makes our country so insane.
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Snowstalker Mk. II
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« Reply #17 on: June 24, 2015, 05:53:14 PM »

No, it's the result of agitation. Pressure works, plain and simple.
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Mechaman
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« Reply #18 on: June 24, 2015, 06:00:29 PM »

Like many trendy social topics, yes:

Isn't it funny how outrage over a Governor defending a flag is stronger on here than say the increased economic inequality that has happened under Southern Governors like Nikki Haley?  Oh yeah, I will acknowledge that does get covered eventually, but those discussions for some reason don't seem to drum up the same level of universal outrage and discussion as arcane debates like whether or not it is appropriate to have a flag of a nation that has been dead for a hundred and fifty years on the front lawn or which party was more pro-civil rights in the 1960s.

Relevant source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqfsLG6Kuz0

And you guys wonder why most people think the US Congress is a flaming bag of dog shit now days?
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TJ in Oregon
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« Reply #19 on: June 24, 2015, 06:57:17 PM »

I can't imagine this came from the RNC on high. If it had the Tea Party types within the state parties would be up-in-arms against the establishment for not "listening to the people".
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Skill and Chance
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« Reply #20 on: June 24, 2015, 06:58:59 PM »

Like many trendy social topics, yes:

Isn't it funny how outrage over a Governor defending a flag is stronger on here than say the increased economic inequality that has happened under Southern Governors like Nikki Haley?  Oh yeah, I will acknowledge that does get covered eventually, but those discussions for some reason don't seem to drum up the same level of universal outrage and discussion as arcane debates like whether or not it is appropriate to have a flag of a nation that has been dead for a hundred and fifty years on the front lawn or which party was more pro-civil rights in the 1960s.

Relevant source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqfsLG6Kuz0

And you guys wonder why most people think the US Congress is a flaming bag of dog shit now days?

Economic inequality is not inherently wrong.  A state government fondly memorializing racism/slavery/segregation/white supremacy is inherently wrong.  Apples and oranges.  
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DS0816
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« Reply #21 on: June 24, 2015, 07:06:34 PM »

It blows my mind that once again we have a horrific mass shooting, and while the rest of the world shakes their head at us again because they already know exactly what the problem is, our own solution is... to take down some flags?

It's a lot easier than charging a white American male as a terrorist.

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« Reply #22 on: June 24, 2015, 07:18:33 PM »



Economic inequality is not inherently wrong.  

Uhh wut?
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pbrower2a
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« Reply #23 on: June 24, 2015, 07:22:23 PM »

I heard one member of a Confederate memorial organization complain that that hateful people such as the Klan had stolen their flag. 
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jfern
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« Reply #24 on: June 24, 2015, 08:40:11 PM »

It would be pretty ironic if Republicans defended the Confederate flag, I mean their party literally fought against the interests of the Confederacy.

The parties aren't the same as 150 years ago.
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