Breaking: Supreme Court rules SSM a legal right

[CountryClassSF]

Pushing the edge might get your post deleted, so it will be lost in cyberspace, rather than stay for all to savor for posterity as it were (the death points being a side issue). You can make your point within the rules. Heck I just did, I think, positing that I think CCSF is probably lying based on the evidence.

Okay, that's it. I'll ask one final time, how can I prove to you that I am gay? my name? something from a long time ago that has me stating that I'm gay?  Just tell me now.

P.S. Don't serve on a jury.

[Badger]

Badger, I feel that continuing to explain would thus do nothing for you since you have yourself convinced of these things.  I'm happy to have a full discussion about it, but in order to have that discussion, the other person has to be willing to have it. If there's no way I can change your preconceived notions, it would be a waste of time for me and for you.

Are you willing to at least discuss how you interpret the Bible to forbid gay marriage but only being "ambiguous" regarding gay marriage? On the surface that seems ludicrous to me, but I'm willing to genuinely listen with open ears and mind.

[cinyc]

Should we allow an open advocate for the slavery of blacks on this forum? Forced child labor? Explicit advocacy for the repression of women?

No, because society evolves, and some views are abhorrent and have no place in the market place of ideas. But this probably doesn't even matter to you, because you're a troll.

Are you seriously advocating banning people who disagree with you on gay marriage? Why do "progressives" like you get to determine what has a place in the marketplace of ideas.  There is nothing "progressive" about censorship.

Society evolves, and denying rights, marginalizing, or repressing minorities is unacceptable; especially when these arguments evolve out of antiquated and misinterpreted religious texts from the Iron age, and many of its adherents have been conditioned not to question the dogma. Secular arguments against marriage as an institution (under which gay marriage falls under) in general are fine, as we are a secular society. Religious arguments have no place, and that is what this debate has always been about.

Fortunately, we still have a First Amendment that guarantees freedom of religion - at least for now.  Intolerant "progressives" like yourself, though, would like to get rid of that and force religions to tow the new bigoted, intolerant "secular" official state religion.  No thanks.

Straw man arguments don't do us blue avatars any good.

What straw man argument?  Nagas all but said that people who oppose gay marriage should be banned from expressing that view and specifically said "Religious arguments have no place".

[CountryClassSF]

Are you willing to at least discuss how you interpret the Bible to forbid gay marriage but only being "ambiguous" regarding gay marriage? On the surface that seems ludicrous to me, but I'm willing to genuinely listen with open ears and mind.

Yes, of course I'm willing to discuss it. But I think somehow proving (to mods only, if I need to give my name, etc) that I'm gay first will be helpful. If you'd like me to explain the marriage vs homosexuality thing, I can try to do that here if it will be permitted to.

I've PMed both you and another mod offering to give my name or preferably something else. Let's get this myth out of the way once and for all.

[Torie]

Pushing the edge might get your post deleted, so it will be lost in cyberspace, rather than stay for all to savor for posterity as it were (the death points being a side issue). You can make your point within the rules. Heck I just did, I think, positing that I think CCSF is probably lying based on the evidence.

Okay, that's it. I'll ask one final time, how can I prove to you that I am gay? my name? something from a long time ago that has me stating that I'm gay?  Just tell me now.

P.S. Don't serve on a jury.

It really doesn't matter whether you are lying or not, so that would be wasting "the court's" time to litigate that. If you are not lying, may God have mercy on your tortured soul, but I digress.

One other thing. Is it at all possible that there can be a thread discussing gay issues, that does not devolve into being all about you?  That is what really angers folks, and incentives them to find a way working their way through the evidence and rule book to get you banned. Think about it.

[cinyc]

Pushing the edge might get your post deleted, so it will be lost in cyberspace, rather than stay for all to savor for posterity as it were (the death points being a side issue). You can make your point within the rules. Heck I just did, I think, positing that I think CCSF is probably lying based on the evidence.

Okay, that's it. I'll ask one final time, how can I prove to you that I am gay? my name? something from a long time ago that has me stating that I'm gay?  Just tell me now.

P.S. Don't serve on a jury.

It really doesn't matter whether you are lying or not, so that would be wasting "the court's" time to litigate that. If you are not lying, may God have mercy on your tortured soul, but I digress.

One other thing. Is it at all possible that there can be a thread discussing gay issues, that does not devolve into being all about you?  That is what really angers folks, and incentives them to find a way working their way through the evidence and rule book to get you banned. Think about it.

Look at how this all started.  CountryClassSF didn't make anything all about him.  He just expressed his opinion on the Supreme Court's decision.  One of the moderators attacked CountryClassSF and others piled on, making it about CountryClassSF.

[CountryClassSF]

Sure. If I can give my opinion on a gay thread without hostile commentary directed at me from multiple posters, itd be very easy. Many choose to make it about me, I give my opinion like others do, and some posters choose to directly attack me.

Others choose to make it about me while I just give a one-post opinion.

And tortured soul bc I am not a fan of SSM?? Sheesh may be going just a little overboard there

[Negusa Nagast 🚀]

Should we allow an open advocate for the slavery of blacks on this forum? Forced child labor? Explicit advocacy for the repression of women?

No, because society evolves, and some views are abhorrent and have no place in the market place of ideas. But this probably doesn't even matter to you, because you're a troll.

Are you seriously advocating banning people who disagree with you on gay marriage? Why do "progressives" like you get to determine what has a place in the marketplace of ideas.  There is nothing "progressive" about censorship.

Society evolves, and denying rights, marginalizing, or repressing minorities is unacceptable; especially when these arguments evolve out of antiquated and misinterpreted religious texts from the Iron age, and many of its adherents have been conditioned not to question the dogma. Secular arguments against marriage as an institution (under which gay marriage falls under) in general are fine, as we are a secular society. Religious arguments have no place, and that is what this debate has always been about.

Fortunately, we still have a First Amendment that guarantees freedom of religion - at least for now.  Intolerant "progressives" like yourself, though, would like to get rid of that and force religions to tow the new bigoted, intolerant "secular" official state religion.  No thanks.

Straw man arguments don't do us blue avatars any good.

What straw man argument?  Nagas all but said that people who oppose gay marriage should be banned from expressing that view and specifically said "Religious arguments have no place".

Once again: should we allow open advocacy of slavery on the forum? After all, it does fall under biblical purview.

And again, religious arguments have no place in the framing and the creation of laws for a secular society (hint, hint. that's what we are!). Funny thing about that first amendment that you mentioned: not only is a freedom to practice your religion (within certain boundaries), it also gives the population writ large protection from it as well. Your church doesn't have to officiate gay marriages, but it cannot deny society at large. 

Moreover, you seem pretty quick to throw the "intolerant" label at the progressives on this forum. I wonder, is this a reaction from being called out intolerant views that you hold? And let me makes this abundantly clear before you activate your persecution complex again: this is not an attack on all of your views, or for rocking a blue avatar, but for situations where you advocate the denial of minority rights based on your personal religious views.

[CountryClassSF]

... And we're back to the gay marriage/slavery comparisons.

[SteveRogers]

... And we're back to the gay marriage/slavery comparisons.

Ok, racial segregation would be the more applicable analogy. Happy?

[CountryClassSF]

... And we're back to the gay marriage/slavery comparisons.

Ok, racial segregation would be the more applicable analogy. Happy?

Not quite. No separation. no separate water fountains. You can't compare it.

[Ebsy]

Didn't Thomas compare the two in his ranty dissent?

[Holmes]

Everyone, stop talking to CountryClassSF. Go outside! Enjoy your life!

[Badger]

Are you willing to at least discuss how you interpret the Bible to forbid gay marriage but only being "ambiguous" regarding gay marriage? On the surface that seems ludicrous to me, but I'm willing to genuinely listen with open ears and mind.

Yes, of course I'm willing to discuss it. But I think somehow proving (to mods only, if I need to give my name, etc) that I'm gay first will be helpful. If you'd like me to explain the marriage vs homosexuality thing, I can try to do that here if it will be permitted to.

I've PMed both you and another mod offering to give my name or preferably something else. Let's get this myth out of the way once and for all.

Dude, there's no need to give your name to "prove" anything (not to mention it'd be near impossible to verify and would hardly prove your sexuality )

[cinyc]

Once again: should we allow open advocacy of slavery on the forum? After all, it does fall under biblical purview.

What does slavery have to do with same-sex marriage?  How often does it even come up on the forum?  And why should I care if someone openly advocates slavery on this forum, anyway?   I'd rather know who the pro-slavery folks are so that I know to question their judgement on other things than ban them for holding an unorthodox view.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Religious arguments are just as valid as secular ones when crafting public policy.  Freedom of religion doesn't apply in some vacuum where you have to give up your religious beliefs in the public square.

What are your supposed boundaries on someone's ability to practice their religion?  Do churches that believe marriage is only between a man and a woman still have the right to preach that, or do they now have to give that up because it violates your "progressive" world view?

You must be logged in to read this quote.

It is a reaction to "progressives" who are quick to throw out the "intolerant" label and attempt to ban those with whom they disagree for having the gaul to stray from the "progressive" line.  Their views are the only settled, appropriate views, and everyone else is an intolerant bigot who should not be able to hold their opinion.  And some "progressives" insist everyone must be tolerant of their beliefs but are anti-religious bigots who hate Christians.

[pbrower2a]

Pushing the edge might get your post deleted, so it will be lost in cyberspace, rather than stay for all to savor for posterity as it were (the death points being a side issue). You can make your point within the rules. Heck I just did, I think, positing that I think CCSF is probably lying based on the evidence.

Okay, that's it. I'll ask one final time, how can I prove to you that I am gay? my name? something from a long time ago that has me stating that I'm gay?  Just tell me now.

P.S. Don't serve on a jury.

Contempt for women?

Extreme, put-on machismo often suggests homosexuality. Such often comes with contempt for femininity.

[retromike22]

Everyone, stop talking to CountryClassSF. Go outside! Enjoy your life!

I have an idea! Whenever any of the gay posters get married, they should pm pics to CountryClassSF!

[eric82oslo]

It seems to me that one poster finds a way to turn threads into being just about him. That to me seems to be trolling and I wish people would ignore such a poster. You go through a thread hoping to read an interchange and then it just becomes page after page of one poster and those who respond to him.

Is that the kind of person that makes this place interesting or someone who ruins the whole point?

See this is what I  spoke about above. I state my opinion on a court ruling, people instantly attack me and claim I'm not gay, I respond to the posts, and I'm accused of the thread turning into something about me.
No, that'd be YOU making it about me.

If you were gay, you would not hate yourself. Thus, you're not gay. Or if not, at the very least you're into S/M.

people have been fighting against their own rights for over a century. that alone wouldn't make ccsf a troll.

You're right. I have an Irish friend who was very sure of himself and articulate about the fact that he would vote no in the Irish same sex marriage referendum to deny himself the rights of everyone else. I find it interesting to say the least. Luckily, he was in the pretty small minority on this one. The vote wasn't even close at the end of the day.

[Ban my account ffs!]

Yeah...CCSF has horrid views on gay marriage and religion...but you cant blame carrion for messing up your street when the crows have had a feast and spread everything everywhere.

Let me clarify before ernest censors and infracts:

CCSF put his opinion in here.  People responded negatively, so he responded back and on and on we go.  Torie and Badger are no doubt getting ready to pounce on him for being the contrarian.

Badger is the one who brought up not believing CCSF is gay.  But surely CCSF must be punished for responding.

[CountryClassSF]

I have an idea! Whenever any of the gay posters get married, they should pm pics to CountryClassSF!

Mature take

[Clarko95 📚💰📈]

How about we just stop interacting with CCSF entirely? Let's get this thread back on track.



I've been euphoric for the past several hours, but after seeing some people bring this up, I feel that I've gotta share it here:

It's sombering that there are a lot of LGBT people who aren't here to see this day. A lot of LGBT people have killed themselves, thinking there is something wrong with them, not knowing how to reconcile their sexuality/gender identity with the horrible sh*t society threw at them, not knowing how to keep themselves alive after being thrown out of the house by parents who put their bigoted beliefs above their own children.

Let's remember everyone who was murdered, shot, beaten, stabbed, dragged behind cars and crucified on fences, because of their actual or supposed sexuality/gender identity. Remember all those LGBT people who lived their whole lives far away from any accepting and understanding society over the thousands of years humans have been on this Earth, who surpressed their identity and never got to be themselves before they passed away of natural causes. They never got to see this day.

This day is also a day to remember all those who died of HIV/AIDS since the 1960s. One of the prinicple motives behind the fight for marriage equality was the fact that during the AIDS crisis of the 1980s and 1990s, many LGBT people in their final days and hours were denied seeing their partners by their families, because their partners did not have spousal rights to visitation and medical decisions. Though to many of us young LGBTers who have been bombarded with safe-sex information for all of our lives and know that if we are infected there are ways to manage it and survive, the horrors of the HIV/AIDS crisis that raged just as recently as 20 years ago, cutting down hundreds of thousands of people both LGBT and not, still casts a pretty long shadow. I'm sure posters like Torie have quite a bit to share with us about those times.

I saw in some news reports about how many of the non-profits and advocacy groups that fought for marriage equality are going to wind up their operations and shut down. I hope many of them move on to related issues like anti-discrimination legislation, educating people about LGBT issues, and fighting the still very real and serious problem of LGBT youth homelessness.

The SCOTUS ruling doesn't change the fact that homophobia is still a huge problem, and that millions of LGBT kids and millions of non-LGBT kids currently are suffering from torment and bullying for their actual/supposed sexual orientation/gender identity, that many of them will still silently sit in church/ mosque/ temple/ synagogue and hear messages of intolerance directed towards people like them for something they cannot change. Many will be so torn with this internal and external conflict that they will develop serious mental and emotional issues that will tear them apart. Many of us (like myself) will still live in fear of being fired if our sexual orientation is revealed or even suspected. Many of us will silently celebrate tonight in a house where we are not accepted or understood. Many will still suffer from hurtful comments and even physical attacks, and many will attempt and regretfully succeed in committing suicide. LGBT people are still in prisons, being tortured, and executed for simply being who they are and loving who they love around the world.


I'm sorry to rain on the parade (hey, that can be a pun, right? Smile, dammit) and bring such negative thoughts and emotions into this day that should be about the celebration of love and equality, but we cannot forget where this fight started. A lot of us younger LGBTs seem to forget what older generations of had to suffer through to get the ball rolling. While we should celebrate this extremely important achievement to honor those who came before us, we should also remember all those who never got to see this day that they deserved. We should also take this momentum and use it to keep fighting the good fight, for equal protection laws, helping homeless LGBT kids, ending violence towards LGBT people both at home and abroad, challenging our L and G brothers and sisters to accept the B and T people, and to continue opening peoples' eyes to why this is such an important issue and why they should be on our side.


So yeah, end of jumbled, emotional rant. I'm tired as sh*t and drained from the past several hours. Let's have an argument about Illinois' state budget tomorrow, then go crazy at Pride on Sunday. Have a good night y'all. Life gets better.

[Beet]

Great post, Clarko. Progress always comes too late.

[RR1997]

Great post, Clarko. Progress always comes too late.

^
That post really touched my heart, Clarko.

[TDAS04]

Great post, Clarko. Progress always comes too late.

^
That post really touched my heart, Clarko.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

It seems like Bernie Sanders has supported SSM since at least 1972.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/06/27/1397068/-BERNIE-Boringly-Pro-LGBT-and-Pro-Civil-Rights-for-the-last-40-to-50-years