Breaking: Supreme Court rules SSM a legal right
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🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸
shua
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« Reply #300 on: June 30, 2015, 02:28:03 PM »

I guess people who object to sex before marriage just hate single people too?
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SUSAN CRUSHBONE
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« Reply #301 on: June 30, 2015, 02:32:43 PM »

I guess people who object to sex before marriage just hate single people too?

what? shua, i don't think you're very good at this whole comparison thing tbqh
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shua
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« Reply #302 on: June 30, 2015, 02:59:41 PM »

I guess people who object to sex before marriage just hate single people too?

what? shua, i don't think you're very good at this whole comparison thing tbqh

You believe that someone can't oppose an act related to sexuality unless the hate the person doing it, when it comes to homosexuality, then why not sex before marriage?  Why there someone just has a moral belief, but you assume that anyone is full of hate and contempt if they say "I don't agree with this thing you are doing, so I'm sorry I can't take part in it, but I hope we can still be friends."
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SUSAN CRUSHBONE
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« Reply #303 on: June 30, 2015, 03:07:53 PM »

I guess people who object to sex before marriage just hate single people too?

what? shua, i don't think you're very good at this whole comparison thing tbqh

You believe that someone can't oppose an act related to sexuality unless the hate the person doing it, when it comes to homosexuality, then why not sex before marriage?  Why there someone just has a moral belief, but you assume that anyone is full of hate and contempt if they say "I don't agree with this thing you are doing, so I'm sorry I can't take part in it, but I hope we can still be friends."

if you have a violent aversion to gay marriage that you do not have to straight marriage, then you believe that gay people are not worth as much as straight people. it's very simple.
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shua
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« Reply #304 on: June 30, 2015, 03:13:25 PM »

I guess people who object to sex before marriage just hate single people too?

what? shua, i don't think you're very good at this whole comparison thing tbqh

You believe that someone can't oppose an act related to sexuality unless the hate the person doing it, when it comes to homosexuality, then why not sex before marriage?  Why there someone just has a moral belief, but you assume that anyone is full of hate and contempt if they say "I don't agree with this thing you are doing, so I'm sorry I can't take part in it, but I hope we can still be friends."

if you have a violent aversion to gay marriage that you do not have to straight marriage, then you believe that gay people are not worth as much as straight people. it's very simple.

a "violent" aversion?

Why is it hard to understand that some people think of marriage and gender in fundamentally different terms than you do, and that it's not just about how much they like gay people?
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SUSAN CRUSHBONE
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« Reply #305 on: June 30, 2015, 04:23:51 PM »

I guess people who object to sex before marriage just hate single people too?

what? shua, i don't think you're very good at this whole comparison thing tbqh

You believe that someone can't oppose an act related to sexuality unless the hate the person doing it, when it comes to homosexuality, then why not sex before marriage?  Why there someone just has a moral belief, but you assume that anyone is full of hate and contempt if they say "I don't agree with this thing you are doing, so I'm sorry I can't take part in it, but I hope we can still be friends."

if you have a violent aversion to gay marriage that you do not have to straight marriage, then you believe that gay people are not worth as much as straight people. it's very simple.

a "violent" aversion?
yes?

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why is it so hard to understand that those people's views are objectively bad? we don't defend people who believe vaccines are evil or people who believe black people are worthless, so why are we supposed to defend people who believe gay people are worthless?

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spare me
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shua
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« Reply #306 on: June 30, 2015, 05:18:56 PM »

I guess people who object to sex before marriage just hate single people too?

what? shua, i don't think you're very good at this whole comparison thing tbqh

You believe that someone can't oppose an act related to sexuality unless the hate the person doing it, when it comes to homosexuality, then why not sex before marriage?  Why there someone just has a moral belief, but you assume that anyone is full of hate and contempt if they say "I don't agree with this thing you are doing, so I'm sorry I can't take part in it, but I hope we can still be friends."

if you have a violent aversion to gay marriage that you do not have to straight marriage, then you believe that gay people are not worth as much as straight people. it's very simple.

a "violent" aversion?
yes?

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why is it so hard to understand that those people's views are objectively bad? we don't defend people who believe vaccines are evil or people who believe black people are worthless, so why are we supposed to defend people who believe gay people are worthless?

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spare me

And now we get to the heart of the issue: the people whose views you consider to be "objectively" bad (I don't know why you get to decide, you obviously haven't taken the time to really listen to anyone you disagree with on this) are people you therefore don't believe have any rights.  I find that disgusting and horrible, but I'm not going to try to force "rehabilitation" on you, because I'm not an authoritarian scumbag.
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Citizen (The) Doctor
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« Reply #307 on: June 30, 2015, 06:33:13 PM »

I guess people who object to sex before marriage just hate single people too?

what? shua, i don't think you're very good at this whole comparison thing tbqh

You believe that someone can't oppose an act related to sexuality unless the hate the person doing it, when it comes to homosexuality, then why not sex before marriage?  Why there someone just has a moral belief, but you assume that anyone is full of hate and contempt if they say "I don't agree with this thing you are doing, so I'm sorry I can't take part in it, but I hope we can still be friends."

if you have a violent aversion to gay marriage that you do not have to straight marriage, then you believe that gay people are not worth as much as straight people. it's very simple.

a "violent" aversion?
yes?

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why is it so hard to understand that those people's views are objectively bad? we don't defend people who believe vaccines are evil or people who believe black people are worthless, so why are we supposed to defend people who believe gay people are worthless?

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spare me

And now we get to the heart of the issue: the people whose views you consider to be "objectively" bad (I don't know why you get to decide, you obviously haven't taken the time to really listen to anyone you disagree with on this) are people you therefore don't believe have any rights.  I find that disgusting and horrible, but I'm not going to try to force "rehabilitation" on you, because I'm not an authoritarian scumbag.

Some people used to see marriage and race in fundamentally different terms that we do. That doesn't stop us from seeing that viewpoint as deplorable.
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SUSAN CRUSHBONE
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« Reply #308 on: June 30, 2015, 06:42:24 PM »

I guess people who object to sex before marriage just hate single people too?

what? shua, i don't think you're very good at this whole comparison thing tbqh

You believe that someone can't oppose an act related to sexuality unless the hate the person doing it, when it comes to homosexuality, then why not sex before marriage?  Why there someone just has a moral belief, but you assume that anyone is full of hate and contempt if they say "I don't agree with this thing you are doing, so I'm sorry I can't take part in it, but I hope we can still be friends."

if you have a violent aversion to gay marriage that you do not have to straight marriage, then you believe that gay people are not worth as much as straight people. it's very simple.

a "violent" aversion?
yes?

Quote
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why is it so hard to understand that those people's views are objectively bad? we don't defend people who believe vaccines are evil or people who believe black people are worthless, so why are we supposed to defend people who believe gay people are worthless?

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spare me

And now we get to the heart of the issue: the people whose views you consider to be "objectively" bad (I don't know why you get to decide, you obviously haven't taken the time to really listen to anyone you disagree with on this) are people you therefore don't believe have any rights.  I find that disgusting and horrible, but I'm not going to try to force "rehabilitation" on you, because I'm not an authoritarian scumbag.

the irony is palpable.
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MaxQue
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« Reply #309 on: June 30, 2015, 07:53:19 PM »

I guess people who object to sex before marriage just hate single people too?

what? shua, i don't think you're very good at this whole comparison thing tbqh

You believe that someone can't oppose an act related to sexuality unless the hate the person doing it, when it comes to homosexuality, then why not sex before marriage?  Why there someone just has a moral belief, but you assume that anyone is full of hate and contempt if they say "I don't agree with this thing you are doing, so I'm sorry I can't take part in it, but I hope we can still be friends."

if you have a violent aversion to gay marriage that you do not have to straight marriage, then you believe that gay people are not worth as much as straight people. it's very simple.

a "violent" aversion?
yes?

Quote
You must be logged in to read this quote.
why is it so hard to understand that those people's views are objectively bad? we don't defend people who believe vaccines are evil or people who believe black people are worthless, so why are we supposed to defend people who believe gay people are worthless?

Quote
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spare me

And now we get to the heart of the issue: the people whose views you consider to be "objectively" bad (I don't know why you get to decide, you obviously haven't taken the time to really listen to anyone you disagree with on this) are people you therefore don't believe have any rights.  I find that disgusting and horrible, but I'm not going to try to force "rehabilitation" on you, because I'm not an authoritarian scumbag.

So, we should respect ISIS fighters, after all, they only follow their moral identity!
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« Reply #310 on: June 30, 2015, 10:04:45 PM »
« Edited: June 30, 2015, 10:09:06 PM by sex-negative feminist prude »

DISCLAIMER: I'm making this post more as an apologetic for certain members of my extended family than anything else.

It's possible, probable even, that at some point in the relatively near future the principle that couples should have access to civil marriage regardless of the combination of their sexes will be widely understood to be grounded on first principles in such a way that nobody can argue otherwise in good faith. At that point we'll indeed be able to say that people who oppose same-sex marriage are a distasteful fringe and can't possibly hold their position for well-intentioned reasons. I don't think we've yet reached the point where that grounding on first principles is self-evident or self-explanatory. I kind of hope we do (mostly because I think that if opposition to same-sex marriage becomes completely socially unacceptable then there are people whose opinions and morals I otherwise respect who will feel obliged to come around on it), but I don't think we have. It's still possible for somebody to oppose same-sex marriage and not be a generally bad person.
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HagridOfTheDeep
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« Reply #311 on: June 30, 2015, 10:41:35 PM »

Very interesting to listen to a straight person rail against a member of the queer community for "not listening to the arguments" of people who are against same-sex marriage.

Um, we're the ones who are on the receiving end of this crap all the time. Roll Eyes Whatever backwards justification a person can come up with to legitimize their opposition to marriage equality really doesn't mean anything. With respect, same-sex marriage is about people who have same-sex attraction, and only people who have same-sex attraction. So we're the ones who get to be the barometers for whether hate is an active part of the equation. While it may be true that some anti-SSMers genuinely believe they can be against SSM without hating gay people (and perhaps some actually don't hate gay people), what they believe in this situation is moot. Because their words and actions impact the LGBT community whether there's intentional hate or not. And those viewpoints are oppressive, unjust, spread misconceptions, fuel distrust, encourage harassment, beat gay people into submission, nurture self-hate and depression, and, in general, make life worse for people who are not straight. So, for the last time, whether a person "intends" to hate means piss-all. It's a consolation prize. Because their actions and attitudes are hateful either way.

So no, I will not accommodate this garbage just because a few bigoted imbeciles can't get over themselves and accept positive change that has nothing to do with them. If you oppose equal marriage, you are either a bigot or stupid. Prove me wrong.
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ag
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« Reply #312 on: June 30, 2015, 10:56:47 PM »

If the United States consisted of NY City, it would have been so easy to let private businesses practice discrimination against customers, if their owners would so desire. So what if some deli or florist on Broadway does not serve blacks, Jews or gays - there is another one 100 yards away that does. Unfortunately, so much of the US consists of places that do not have so many florists or bakers. So, the answer to the question: "why would you want to purchase your cake from people who hate you?" is sometimes very simple: "this is the only baker in town".

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« Reply #313 on: June 30, 2015, 11:44:57 PM »
« Edited: June 30, 2015, 11:50:02 PM by Clarko95 »

Very interesting to listen to a straight person rail against a member of the queer community for "not listening to the arguments" of people who are against same-sex marriage.

I suggest you don't call shua straight. He gets very pissy about you "defining his sexuality" when he didn't "give you permission" to do so.

This, despite the fact that he identifies as a male and posts in the Hot Guys Thread, while twisting himself in knots to defend Indiana's RFRA law, putting the desires of religious conservatives to discriminate and legally disassociate themselves with LGBT people over the rights of LGBT people to go about their lives without discrimination, arguing you can oppose LGBT rights while not being straight yourself, and that supporting discrimination against LGBT people totally doesn't mean you hate them!

So basically, he's an unnecessarily wordy CountryClasslessSF going on about the persecution of "people of faith" without all the thread derailing. There's no point in arguing with people like them. Just pray for people like him to figure out how to accept themselves.

Kudos on the rest of your post though!
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HagridOfTheDeep
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« Reply #314 on: July 01, 2015, 12:21:44 AM »

Yes, calling him that does weaken my point. It doesn't matter what a person is. If they are against equal rights then they are part of the problem.
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shua
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« Reply #315 on: July 01, 2015, 12:24:03 AM »
« Edited: July 01, 2015, 12:26:20 AM by shua »

Very interesting to listen to a straight person rail against a member of the queer community for "not listening to the arguments" of people who are against same-sex marriage.

Um, we're the ones who are on the receiving end of this crap all the time. Roll Eyes Whatever backwards justification a person can come up with to legitimize their opposition to marriage equality really doesn't mean anything. With respect, same-sex marriage is about people who have same-sex attraction, and only people who have same-sex attraction. So we're the ones who get to be the barometers for whether hate is an active part of the equation. While it may be true that some anti-SSMers genuinely believe they can be against SSM without hating gay people (and perhaps some actually don't hate gay people), what they believe in this situation is moot. Because their words and actions impact the LGBT community whether there's intentional hate or not. And those viewpoints are oppressive, unjust, spread misconceptions, fuel distrust, encourage harassment, beat gay people into submission, nurture self-hate and depression, and, in general, make life worse for people who are not straight. So, for the last time, whether a person "intends" to hate means piss-all. It's a consolation prize. Because their actions and attitudes are hateful either way.

So no, I will not accommodate this garbage just because a few bigoted imbeciles can't get over themselves and accept positive change that has nothing to do with them. If you oppose equal marriage, you are either a bigot or stupid. Prove me wrong.

How am I supposed to prove you wrong when you offer nothing but tautology?   Me giving you examples of people who oppose gay marriage being nice to gay people clearly is not going to change your mind.

I will say this, that the more hateful the opposition to gay marriage is, the more it tends to draw attention to itself.  People quietly minding their own business and being friends to gay people while opposing gay marriage aren't so obvious in their opposition until they are asked to do something they disagree with, or they see people attacked for having their position.

And if you think that all gay people believe that those who oppose gay marriage are hateful, then you are just wrong, you don't speak for all gay people on this.  I'm sorry your experiences have led you to your position.
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shua
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« Reply #316 on: July 01, 2015, 12:36:37 AM »

Very interesting to listen to a straight person rail against a member of the queer community for "not listening to the arguments" of people who are against same-sex marriage.

I suggest you don't call shua straight. He gets very pissy about you "defining his sexuality" when he didn't "give you permission" to do so.

This, despite the fact that he identifies as a male and posts in the Hot Guys Thread, while twisting himself in knots to defend Indiana's RFRA law, putting the desires of religious conservatives to discriminate and legally disassociate themselves with LGBT people over the rights of LGBT people to go about their lives without discrimination, arguing you can oppose LGBT rights while not being straight yourself, and that supporting discrimination against LGBT people totally doesn't mean you hate them!

So basically, he's an unnecessarily wordy CountryClasslessSF going on about the persecution of "people of faith" without all the thread derailing. There's no point in arguing with people like them. Just pray for people like him to figure out how to accept themselves.

Kudos on the rest of your post though!

What are you insinuating?   Can't handle the fact that not everyone fits into your categories like sardines?
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shua
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« Reply #317 on: July 01, 2015, 12:44:53 AM »

So, we should respect ISIS fighters, after all, they only follow their moral identity!

ISIS fighters kill innocent people.  That's a rather fundamental issue.   A better example: We should respect people who want to wear hijab, and not complain about how they are supposedly self-hating women who hurt our liberal feels.
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HagridOfTheDeep
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« Reply #318 on: July 01, 2015, 12:45:57 AM »

I said the consequence of their actions is to spread hate. I did not say they themselves are hateful. I said it doesn't matter if the individuals are hateful or not. A few instances of anti-SSMers being nice does not undue the depth of damage they've done in spreading the culture they spread.

If a gay kid hears their parents are against gay rights, the message that it's somehow less acceptable to be gay still comes through loud and clear... with or without hate.

So, again, it doesn't matter. You're missing my point in your obsession to validate those who would see us be lesser members of society... and for the life of me, I can't understand why. If a religion says one thing against all the better judgement of decades' worth of experience in real life, you'd think the intuitive thing would be to realize that affording everyone equal rights is the way to go. Sadly, some people can't see it that way. They should. Religious freedom be damned. Because it really is that simple. "Religious freedom" is not an excuse to treat people who are different in a such a way as to cause them negative outcomes.
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shua
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« Reply #319 on: July 01, 2015, 12:53:18 AM »

Some people used to see marriage and race in fundamentally different terms that we do. That doesn't stop us from seeing that viewpoint as deplorable.

Do I really have to explain why the relation between race and marriage and between gender and marriage are different?

If gender were not a crucial aspect of human society throughout history, there would be no such thing as marriage, at least as we know it.
All those who just won the right to get married to their same-sex partner should thank our predecessors that gender has been an important social category throughout history.
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shua
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« Reply #320 on: July 01, 2015, 01:04:02 AM »

I said the consequence of their actions is to spread hate. I did not say they themselves are hateful. I said it doesn't matter if the individuals are hateful or not. A few instances of anti-SSMers being nice does not undue the depth of damage they've done in spreading the culture they spread.

If a gay kid hears their parents are against gay rights, the message that it's somehow less acceptable to be gay still comes through loud and clear... with or without hate.

So, again, it doesn't matter. You're missing my point in your obsession to validate those who would see us be lesser members of society... and for the life of me, I can't understand why. If a religion says one thing against all the better judgement of decades' worth of experience in real life, you'd think the intuitive thing would be to realize that affording everyone equal rights is the way to go. Sadly, some people can't see it that way. They should. Religious freedom be damned. Because it really is that simple. "Religious freedom" is not an excuse to treat people who are different in a such a way as to cause them negative outcomes.

I guess the good they do for gay people as individuals doesn't matter, because of this one position, they're all bigots who are to blame for everything that's ever happened to gay people and deserve whatever they get.  Sorry, I can't respect that. 

Yeah, if a gay kid hears their parents oppose some aspect of gay rights, or gay marriage, that can hurt. I can definitely see that.  But what is the response?  Resenting the parent for it, or having a conversation to explain one's own feelings and see where they are coming from, and maybe convince them down the road, instead of burning bridges?
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HagridOfTheDeep
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« Reply #321 on: July 01, 2015, 01:21:04 AM »

Did I advocate anywhere for burning bridges? In that situation, I would not run up to my parents and wave in their face that they're either stupid or bigots (even though I still maintain it would be true). I'm having this conversation here because we can discuss blunt truths without it significantly impacting the daily realities of our lives. Tact is certainly important when power is in play. Here, however, we're having a debate on an equal playing field.

As for their one position rendering moot the good work they do for individual gay people... well, I'm going to have to live with your disrespect. Intentional hate is worse than unintentional hate, sure. But most of the issues that members of the LGBT community face today are a result of the anti-gay culture that has festered in the world for far too long. That is what we need to combat. And arbiters of this culture include people who fight against equal rights for LGBTers. I can't respect theirs as an acceptable position and I can't ignore the consequences of their belief on this particular issue. It's like soft power versus hard power. I'm fortunate that the sense of "wrong" and "disgust" that I once associated with being gay did not come from the hard power of outwardly hateful individuals. But there was still self-loathing—damaging self-loathing—because I knew the stigma and could see those who were fighting to keep it in tact.

And anyway, you say I believe "they're all bigots who are to blame for everything [...] and deserve whatever they get." Uh, what are they going to "get"? The horror of having to treat gay people with dignity? Oh, woe is life for them. Having to actually associate with these sinners? Ick! Having to live with the fact that gays and lesbians can't be denied service for an aspect of their identity that is beyond their control? What has this world come to!

So yeah, I suppose they do deserve whatever they "get."
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CountryClassSF
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« Reply #322 on: July 01, 2015, 02:53:34 AM »
« Edited: July 01, 2015, 02:58:03 AM by CountryClassSF »

Special rights are not equal rights.

The gay activists now will go after churches next. Their goal is not only what they label equality under the law, in which legitimate objective observers can see is not equality, but actually discrimination against heterosexuals.. Particularly Christian heterosexuals.

the same people that claim to be anti bullying are perfectly fine with it when it's someone else on the receiving end.

That's the gay agenda folks that I see with my own eyes. It is discussed openly in homosexual circles. Conservatives need to vote. Band together and vote.

I have not been able to sleep for days. These are sad times for our country.
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afleitch
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« Reply #323 on: July 01, 2015, 03:32:24 AM »

Special rights are not equal rights.

The gay activists now will go after churches next. Their goal is not only what they label equality under the law, in which legitimate objective observers can see is not equality, but actually discrimination against heterosexuals.. Particularly Christian heterosexuals.

the same people that claim to be anti bullying are perfectly fine with it when it's someone else on the receiving end.

That's the gay agenda folks that I see with my own eyes. It is discussed openly in homosexual circles. Conservatives need to vote. Band together and vote.

I have not been able to sleep for days. These are sad times for our country.

Really?
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CountryClassSF
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« Reply #324 on: July 01, 2015, 03:53:19 AM »

Sure I've made no secret as to the fact that the ruling upset me. I'm saying that some people are definitely advocating those things. And I believe as a result people of faith should start a voter registration drive.
This is one example: http://time.com/3939143/nows-the-time-to-end-tax-exemptions-for-religious-institutions/
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