Greek Referendum on IMF/Troika deal

[Tetro Kornbluth]

[Boston Bread]

lol PASOK

[ag]

Funny, that it is the retirees, whose pensions Tsipras is claiming to protect, who voted "yes".

And proud people are dangerous - but we knew that.

[jaichind]

Did this poll ask for who voted null.  I am surprised how high the No vote for KKE is.  I figured a bunch of KKE voted null.  But I agree that the non-null KKE voter for sure voted No which is what this exit poll is picking up.

[Bacon King]

Did this poll ask for who voted null.  I am surprised how high the No vote for KKE is.  I figured a bunch of KKE voted null.  But I agree that the non-null KKE voter for sure voted No which is what this exit poll is picking up.

A quick check of that one KKE-voting island (Ikarias)

53% turnout (ten points lower than national rate)

88% of votes valid (six points lower than national rate)
11% of votes invalid (approx double the national rate)
1% of votes blank (approx 125% of national rate)

80% NO
20% YES

no idea if Communist island is a representative sample of KKE voters elsewhere but that's the easiest way to see how KKE voted via municipality vote data

[Simfan34]

I'm surprised that pensioners-- particularly public sector pensioners-- would have swung towards "yes", never mind that much more than the general population! They would seem to have been the ones worse affected by the Eurogroup agreement.

Perhaps the capital controls did it for them. At least, they were so adversely affected by the 60€ cap that it had to be raised to 120€ for them. One can imagine it has been least pleasant for those living off of savings.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

Look how far "No" voters have swung from Potami! Obviously a bit of polarisation there.

Also curious: no stastistical difference between public employees, private employees and the unemployed.

(I wonder if fishermen have ulterior motives for leaving the EU)

[ag]

I'm surprised that pensioners-- particularly public sector pensioners-- would have swung towards "yes", never mind that much more than the general population! They would seem to have been the ones worse affected by the Eurogroup agreement.

Perhaps the capital controls did it for them. At least, they were so adversely affected by the 60€ cap that it had to be raised to 120€ for them. One can imagine it has been least pleasant for those living off of savings.

Well, what do you prefer? A pension that is 20% lower regularly paid (yes), or a pension that is 50% lower possibly paid sometimes (no)? That was what they were asked.

[jaichind]

Bild, Germany’s biggest selling newspaper, urged Merkel to remain tough and offer “no new billions for Greece.”  “Today we need the Iron Chancellor,” ran the tabloid’s front page headline alongside a picture of Merkel in a Bismarck-style army helmet.

[jaichind]

German media sources say the Greek plan being presented by Tsakalotos is pretty much the plan that got rejected in the referendum plus some cuts in defense and keeping the special lower VAT tax rates in special tourist zones.

[Zanas]

I'm surprised that pensioners-- particularly public sector pensioners-- would have swung towards "yes", never mind that much more than the general population! They would seem to have been the ones worse affected by the Eurogroup agreement.

Perhaps the capital controls did it for them. At least, they were so adversely affected by the 60€ cap that it had to be raised to 120€ for them. One can imagine it has been least pleasant for those living off of savings.

My thought is that it's not a pensioner thing, but an age thing. The olds have known Greece's integration in the EEC for a brighter future, they don't want to renege on that. The youngs have only known the EU to be sh**t. That's why.

[RogueBeaver]

Guardian says Greeks presented no proposal, will submit request and proposal tomorrow.

Politico says Tsipras asking for $7B bridge loan.

[The Other Castro]

What would that mean in terms of them leaving the Euro or not?

[Beezer]

No proposal, eh? Well at least this time around they didn't send out the wrong one.

[jaichind]

Why are the Greeks doing this?  After the referendum the anti-Greek united front in the rest of the EU are showing signs of cracking.  Now this will re-unite them again. 

[jaichind]

Greece says it will submit new aid proposal 'maybe' Wednesday

This might be a ploy to get the EU to continue funding Greek banks while talks continue.  This way the principled stance of the Germans would be broken making way for more dramatic concessions from the EU.

[Torie]

Maybe the Greeks were trying to find out what would fly first today. Anyway, when the Greeks do put a plan on the table, then what happens? Do the Euros then put some other plan on the table? Is making the Greeks put up something first for cosmetic purposes? Or is the idea that they are being told you need to put up a plan with this or that content, and if you don't we will just say no, because the only plan that will fly is one that you propose yourself, so this chat about bullying you, is put to an end?  None of this makes much sense to me. Maybe part of the answer is that the Euros themselves can't agree on anything, and thus need something concrete to talk about first. But there seems to be quite a bit of agreement (France and Italy perhaps being the exceptions) on one thing:

[RogueBeaver]

Stubb: Greek request coming in a few hours, last chance.

[jaichind]

Unnamed Greek official said that Tsipras presented Greek proposal to Obama.  If he can do that why did not bring such a plan in writing to the meeting today ?

[jaichind]

A Greek official has conceded that the country's banks are unlikely to reopen this week despite an earlier pledge to do so.

[Tender Branson]

Unnamed Greek official said that Tsipras presented Greek proposal to Obama.  If he can do that why did not bring such a plan in writing to the meeting today ?

Good, maybe the US will now bail out Greece

[Torie]

Unnamed Greek official said that Tsipras presented Greek proposal to Obama.  If he can do that why did not bring such a plan in writing to the meeting today ?

Good, maybe the US will now bail out Greece

Even better, maybe the US will join the Eurozone. Anything is possible.

[ingemann]

Maybe the Greeks were trying to find out what would fly first today. Anyway, when the Greeks do put a plan on the table, then what happens? Do the Euros then put some other plan on the table? Is making the Greeks put up something first for cosmetic purposes? Or is the idea that they are being told you need to put up a plan with this or that content, and if you don't we will just say no, because the only plan that will fly is one that you propose yourself, so this chat about bullying you, is put to an end?  None of this makes much sense to me. Maybe part of the answer is that the Euros themselves can't agree on anything, and thus need something concrete to talk about first. But there seems to be quite a bit of agreement (France and Italy perhaps being the exceptions) on one thing:

EU ask Greece to put out a plan for several purposes.

1: EU expect the member countries to know best what kind of reforms they can make.
2: EU also get to see whether the Greeks are serious this time (yeah right)
3: The rest of EU limit the amount of time and resources they're going to waste on the Greeks, if they're not serious. If they come with a complete unrealistic suggestion, they can be send home again.

[RogueBeaver]

Renzi: all EU leaders will meet on Sunday, waiting for new Greek proposals then.

[RogueBeaver]

Merkel: Greece will submit a loan request and list of loan proposals tomorrow, detailed requests for a multi-year program Thursday. Latter required before short-term financing can be discussed.