You're Less Important then NPCs - The Senate

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Well I don't support making it 3 years, and I believe Yankee tried to make it 2 years. That's simply too short an amount of time, and I don't think we should shoot ourselves  in the foot by capping the maximum sentence. This is nothing to do with a death penalty, since we don't have the power to ban accounts from the forum.

If you want to use real life examples lets look at what happened in 2004 in the UK when the European judges tried to strike down our life sentences that had been put on dangerous criminals for a reason. I'm opposed to Yankee's amendment because 3 years is too short, I'm not in favour of a death penalty-I'm just not going to completely capitulate. As a Senator I voted against the amendment because it handicapped the ability to deal with 'SirNick' style cases, look at this for example

3. The maximum sentence for all Crimes Against Atlasia other than Identity Theft or Electoral Intimidation shall be of two years one year in length.
.

That's why I voted against the amendment.

Sure let's have the debate, but rhetoric isn't going to solve it

Which is why I said let my amendment stand and then amend back in a specific clause for terroristic deletion or tack it on to the treason clause.  We can then debate an appropriate maximum for that as a part of that debate. But no, we are instead going to vote to restore infinit-5-2 instead of 3-2-1.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

This is about game issues, you can't be allowed to completely delete for example the whole government thread and then come back to the game in two years.

This isn't a death penalty, Yankee is just fear mongering

No, I'm just keeping a campaign promise, to find "innovative ways" to involve the general public in Senate debates.

[bore]

It's not the case that the issue of sentencing only just came up as an issue, given the long sentences issued during the Lumine adminstration which were hotly debated.

And, as I said on the thread for this bill and have elsewhere every crime is unique and so the interpretation of what falls under what law is always subjective. It is impossible to not give leeway to the judiciary no matter how hard we try.

@President Bore

1. You'll forgive the hyperbole, I wanted to get people's attention and this seemed like the most effective way to do it. I am not conflating anything, I am merely drawing attention to the matter of ultimate sentencing as Kal called it and the fact that litteraly no one else is concerned about these matters.

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Also, If this is meant to be some kind of sick dogwhistle on the issue of my sanity, it is completely transparent bore.

Also, since you mention pardons being such an integral aspect of protecting people becuase obviously it is outrageous for us to limit these sentences? What is the schedule for Snowstalker? The election is over, why not liberal a fellow laborite? Therein lies the point, you could waste away waiting for a sympathetic President to toss a pardon your way. I don't consider it an adequate protection.

I'm going to have to disagree because you are, objectively conflating the two. The non playable justice system and the playable justice system are just not comparable in this game.

That line about atlasia not being someone's life isn't even close to calling you insane, so I have no idea what you're saying.

Also, as numerous players can confirm, I have been thinking about who to pardon over the last week or so, which, of course, has nothing to do with the fact snowstalker is in labor.

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I just think remind people that these sentences is a good way to get them to tone down the apocalypticism

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I'm not entirely sure what this is about or responding to.

[Lincoln Republican]

Where's the compassion and forgiveness in this game?

Sure some have committed what is considered treason in Atlasia, or have had sock accounts, but Napoleon and SirNick have as well in the past made valuable and worthwhile contributions to this game, and deserve a second chance.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

I should note that while I am not particularly attached to the existing sentencing maximum, that in practice no ban from the game is necessarily permanent: executive pardoning powers are rather sweeping.

Oh, yes. One more thing. Two actually.

It is a) not even certain if there will be a trial (check out the constitutional requirements that need to be fulfilled people! Can a legal jury be constituted from the Pacific citizenry? I personally suspect not) and b) yes the point about inconsistent application of our treason laws and so on is legit: this is one reason why a trial (if it happens) would be a good thing. It would be for the best to have them tested against posters who aren't widely reviled.

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

Sure some have committed what is considered treason in Atlasia, or have had sock accounts, but Napoleon and SirNick have as well in the past made valuable and worthwhile contributions to this game, and deserve a second chance.

Napoleon ain't coming back because he was a sock of a banned poster. SirNick, well, committed something what could be considered the closest equivalent of terrorism as far as the game is concerned. Those two are extreme cases. Snowstalker, for example, was far from such an extreme cases, and neither are Turkisblau and Ebowed.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Snowstalker voted for the legislation that he was convicted under (as did you) and Ebowed, when President, signed into law the laws on treason that all subsequent statute has broadly copied.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

It's not the case that the issue of sentencing only just came up as an issue, given the long sentences issued during the Lumine adminstration which were hotly debated.

Indeed this has been building and it is also why I was so shocked that more Laborites were not speaking up as Adam at least never goes a day without whining about his people being behind bars. Strangely, it was beginning to seem like no one else in Labor cared about the matter, and with TNF gone there was no natural "free everybody, repeal all laws" voice left.

@President Bore

1. You'll forgive the hyperbole, I wanted to get people's attention and this seemed like the most effective way to do it. I am not conflating anything, I am merely drawing attention to the matter of ultimate sentencing as Kal called it and the fact that litteraly no one else is concerned about these matters.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Also, If this is meant to be some kind of sick dogwhistle on the issue of my sanity, it is completely transparent bore.

Also, since you mention pardons being such an integral aspect of protecting people becuase obviously it is outrageous for us to limit these sentences? What is the schedule for Snowstalker? The election is over, why not liberal a fellow laborite? Therein lies the point, you could waste away waiting for a sympathetic President to toss a pardon your way. I don't consider it an adequate protection.

I'm going to have to disagree because you are, objectively conflating the two. The non playable justice system and the playable justice system are just not comparable in this game.

That line about atlasia not being someone's life isn't even close to calling you insane, so I have no idea what you're saying.

Also, as numerous players can confirm, I have been thinking about who to pardon over the last week or so, which, of course, has nothing to do with the fact snowstalker is in labor.

I am not saying you should or should not pardon Snowstalker. I am merely saying that relying on pardons for hash sentences is a rather arbitrary solution to a problem that the legislative branch can take certain precautions against and ensure a fairer, more just application of the law as a result.

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I just think remind people that these sentences is a good way to get them to tone down the apocalypticism

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I'm not entirely sure what this is about or responding to.

Why should it tone anything down. It is not like anybody doesn't know there are some pretty harsh sentences, but in some ways you a are a victim of your own success. Compiling the law makes it easier to change and "easier to know", by compiling it, the fact that "there a re freaking liftetime bans from a game", can become an issue.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Snowstalker voted for the legislation that he was convicted under (as did you) and Ebowed, when President, signed into law the laws on treason that all subsequent statute has broadly copied.

Which should send up the very red flags I am talking about. Clearly the presumption was for a certain implementation on his part and clearly that assumption proved to be incorrect and the application of it was much harsher. Hence the underlying point about reducing the maximums so as to avoid the window for potential excessiveness down the road.