See things from the other's perspective
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Author Topic: See things from the other's perspective  (Read 2947 times)
Reaganfan
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« on: June 29, 2015, 09:51:44 AM »
« edited: June 29, 2015, 02:53:40 PM by True Federalist »

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/us-politics/11703283/Confederate-flag-is-a-symbol-of-Americas-culture-wars.html

Great article. It describes feelings on both sides.



 But putting yourself in the other guy’s shoes is a two-way street. And since I'm speaking to a predominately British audience here, I thought it might be healthy to continue this game of role-play.

Now, pretend for a minute that you’re a 50-year old white man living somewhere in the Deep South. You cast your first vote for Ronald Reagan in 1984. As a kid, your favorite show was the Dukes of Hazzard, which featured a car called The General Lee. The backdrop to every party or prom you’ve ever attended was the music of Lynyrd Skynyrd (with lyrics like “In Birmingham they love the governor”).

Today, your way of life is under attack - and this (by far) transcends the Confederate flag. You’re experiencing what feels like a radical cultural revolution.


(Trimmed for copyright - TF)
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CrabCake
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« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2015, 10:11:38 AM »

Seems weirdly patronising. Like he thinks southern men are babies or something.
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anvi
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« Reply #2 on: June 29, 2015, 10:42:40 AM »

There's a lot of talk about what happened while people "grew up" in that piece.  To me, a crucial part of really growing up involves questioning whether what one was told as a child is actually true or good.  Clinging to traditions for the mere benefit of nostalgia is one thing that itself prevents us from seeing things from the other's perspective.  There are some things I still cherish from where and when I grew up, and hopefully everyone does.  But it's the ability, through changing times and openness to more and more people, to question and reevaluate what one was taught as a child for oneself that is a big part of growing up.  To me, if one is not doing that, one isn't growing up, just growing older.  Our identity doesn't just derive from what we were brought up with and how the world might challenge that, but it also derives from our ability to challenge ourselves.
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bedstuy
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« Reply #3 on: June 29, 2015, 10:53:53 AM »

If you're a grown man, and not a whining baby, you should be able to handle this kind of stuff. 
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Torie
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« Reply #4 on: June 29, 2015, 10:54:59 AM »

"The progressive winners in this culture war want to punish their opponents. They don’t want comity, they want revenge."

I would like to see a list of instances where this "revenge" thing has manifested itself. I think this meme is way overdone. I might add, that usually the revenge impulse is fueled by losing, not winning. So it really does not make much sense.

Who wants to take up the challenge, and give me a revenge list?
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SWE
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« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2015, 11:02:21 AM »

I have this this exercise and it has only convinced me further that this hypothetical right winger is a bad person.
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Cory
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« Reply #6 on: June 29, 2015, 04:13:17 PM »

I have this this exercise and it has only convinced me further that this hypothetical right winger is a bad person.

Things aren't that simple. People aren't good or bad based on if they relate to you culturally or agree with you politically.
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RFayette
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« Reply #7 on: June 29, 2015, 04:25:09 PM »

Everyone feels sad when they feel their "side" is losing, especially on cultural issues.

I think both sides would do best to accept victories in stride and not mock or taunt the opposition. 
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« Reply #8 on: June 29, 2015, 05:12:37 PM »

If you're a grown man, and not a whining baby, you should be able to handle this kind of stuff. 

People historically have not responded well to being dispossessed of their culture. It's not an issue of maturity.
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The Free North
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« Reply #9 on: June 29, 2015, 05:20:08 PM »

If you're a grown man, and not a whining baby, you should be able to handle this kind of stuff. 

People historically have not responded well to being dispossessed of their culture. It's not an issue of maturity.

When you're culture conflicts with the core values of the country you're living in, its time to re-examine your belief system.

That goes for people here and around the world. If you want to live in a Non-Western Authoritarian state there are plenty of lovely options.
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Adam Griffin
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« Reply #10 on: June 29, 2015, 05:39:19 PM »

Yes, Naso, I've already analyzed this quite succinctly with a post from awhile back:

And to provide the real answer to the original question about "why are conservatives becoming so unhinged over Caitlyn Jenner?":

This unfolding is absolutely, positively indicative of the unraveling of the world that conservatives love so dear. Practically everything they once loved and considered to be America is dead, and what isn't soon will be.


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Harry
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« Reply #11 on: June 29, 2015, 05:53:16 PM »

Um, the line is "In Birmingham they love the governor -- boo! boo! boo!"

Lynyrd Skynyrd in the 1970s (not the current bastardization) was a really liberal band. "Saturday Night Special" is a gun control to the left of any current U.S. Senator.
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cinyc
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« Reply #12 on: June 29, 2015, 06:22:31 PM »

"The progressive winners in this culture war want to punish their opponents. They don’t want comity, they want revenge."

I would like to see a list of instances where this "revenge" thing has manifested itself. I think this meme is way overdone. I might add, that usually the revenge impulse is fueled by losing, not winning. So it really does not make much sense.

Who wants to take up the challenge, and give me a revenge list?

1) It is not enough for gay marriage to be legal.  You must force those who disagree with you to specifically perform for you, like by baking your gay wedding cake under penalty of law.  But of course, your gay marriage won't affect those who disagree in any way, right?
2) Brendan Eich, former Mozilla CEO, was pushed out of his job for the crime of donating to the "wrong" side of Prop 8.  And, as far as I know, hasn't found a job since.
3) You can't express your opinion against Mexican immigration.  If you do, Univision and NBC will pull your TV show for not expressing the politically correct view on the subject after agitation from the "progressive" mob.

Don't publicly oppose the "progressive" mob.  They are so vicious that you can lose you job.
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RFayette
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« Reply #13 on: June 29, 2015, 06:26:50 PM »

"The progressive winners in this culture war want to punish their opponents. They don’t want comity, they want revenge."

I would like to see a list of instances where this "revenge" thing has manifested itself. I think this meme is way overdone. I might add, that usually the revenge impulse is fueled by losing, not winning. So it really does not make much sense.

Who wants to take up the challenge, and give me a revenge list?

3) You can't express your opinion against Mexican immigration.  If you do, Univision and NBC will pull your TV show for not expressing the politically correct view on the subject after agitation from the "progressive" mob.

Your other two points are reasonable imo, but come on.  It's the way Trump expressed his views that got him kicked off.  If he instead said, "I humbly am of the opinion we should restrict current levels of immigration.  We need to help ensure more jobs and higher wages for American citizens.  We are a nation of immigrants, but we have to find a balance, and I believe we have exceeded it at the present time" he would not have gotten kicked off.
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CountryClassSF
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« Reply #14 on: June 29, 2015, 06:33:33 PM »

Thank you for the read. I can't help but see parallels of what is happening to this country. Not just on the flag, but on so many other issues

I don't feel any particular attachment to the Confederate Battle Flag, but I do feel that there is a contingent in this country who essentially want to expunge the past
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Cory
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« Reply #15 on: June 29, 2015, 07:51:49 PM »

When you're culture conflicts with the core values of the country you're living in, its time to re-examine your belief system.

I don't think you realize what you just said here. You obviously wouldn't apply this standard to literally anything other then a 1st world liberal democracy.
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TJ in Oregon
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« Reply #16 on: June 29, 2015, 07:58:32 PM »

It's a radical cultural revolution no doubt but what the heck does that have to do with the Confederates? Or can northerners not be socons anymore?
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« Reply #17 on: June 29, 2015, 09:15:07 PM »

It's a radical cultural revolution no doubt but what the heck does that have to do with the Confederates? Or can northerners not be socons anymore?

The Stars and Bars have a significance that goes beyond regional pride or nationalism. The flag is a symbol of opposition to an overbearing government hostile to your way of life. SoCon Yankees would do well to be troubled by the recent trampling of the Confederate flag.
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RFayette
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« Reply #18 on: June 29, 2015, 09:55:17 PM »

It's a radical cultural revolution no doubt but what the heck does that have to do with the Confederates? Or can northerners not be socons anymore?

The Stars and Bars have a significance that goes beyond regional pride or nationalism. The flag is a symbol of opposition to an overbearing government hostile to your way of life. SoCon Yankees would do well to be troubled by the recent trampling of the Confederate flag.

Actually, many of the "Northern socons" were descendants of folks who hated the Confederacy and were fiercely pro-union, believing Southern slavery was a moral evil and an abomination to God.      

Do you really think Northern Calvinists and conservative Catholics back in the day would've flied the rebel flag?
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jfern
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« Reply #19 on: June 29, 2015, 10:17:09 PM »

The flag being hung next to the SC statehouse isn't even a historical Confederate flag.
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TJ in Oregon
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« Reply #20 on: June 29, 2015, 10:25:43 PM »

It's a radical cultural revolution no doubt but what the heck does that have to do with the Confederates? Or can northerners not be socons anymore?

The Stars and Bars have a significance that goes beyond regional pride or nationalism. The flag is a symbol of opposition to an overbearing government hostile to your way of life. SoCon Yankees would do well to be troubled by the recent trampling of the Confederate flag.


I am trouble much more by the corporate intrusion than by the government one over this. I have no personal desire to ever have a Confederate flag and find the very thought completely alien (see RFayette's post). I also have no problem with the government taking it off public buildings.

I am very troubled by private companies such as Google or Amazon taking down all of their confederate flags. It matters very little who the squashes the freedom of expression; who needs a tyrannical government to block free speech when he has tyrannical corporations subject to the latest whims of boycotting SJWs? Again, I despise the Confederate flag and would never consider flying one or buying one. But that mere fact that I can't buy one is rather Orwellian.
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Adam Griffin
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« Reply #21 on: June 30, 2015, 12:10:51 AM »

It's a radical cultural revolution no doubt but what the heck does that have to do with the Confederates? Or can northerners not be socons anymore?

Didn't you get the memo?
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
Ernest
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« Reply #22 on: June 30, 2015, 06:29:44 AM »

The flag being hung next to the SC statehouse isn't even a historical Confederate flag.
Yes it is. South Carolina regiments fought in the Army of Northern Virginia, and its square battle flag is the one that was adopted by Confederate veterans groups, both those consisting of actual veterans and of their descendants. Even the rectangular flag that flew from the dome for around forty years has some historical value, tho not nearly as much as the square. It's true that neither version was a national flag, but it's official purpose as it is currently flown on the grounds is not as part of a memorial to the Confederate nation but to the Confederate soldiers.
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Torie
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« Reply #23 on: June 30, 2015, 07:29:04 AM »
« Edited: June 30, 2015, 07:31:12 AM by Torie »

Well, if by mob, we mean folks who may boycott businesses who are associated with causes or comments anathema to "the mob," OK, but socons have made threats to boycott businesses too from time to time. One has a right to boycott business for ideological reasons. This comment of mine refers to 2) and 3) below I think (as well to TJ's comment about Amazon and Google). As to 1), that is a legal issue, that is still in the process of being resolved (there are always folks around ready to sue over perceived rights), and hopefully SCOTUS in due course will protect the act of refusing to making gay themed wedding cakes as a protected act of religious expression. So I don't think 3) is a "mob" issue, it's a legal issue.

1) It is not enough for gay marriage to be legal.  You must force those who disagree with you to specifically perform for you, like by baking your gay wedding cake under penalty of law.  But of course, your gay marriage won't affect those who disagree in any way, right?
2) Brendan Eich, former Mozilla CEO, was pushed out of his job for the crime of donating to the "wrong" side of Prop 8.  And, as far as I know, hasn't found a job since.
3) You can't express your opinion against Mexican immigration.  If you do, Univision and NBC will pull your TV show for not expressing the politically correct view on the subject after agitation from the "progressive" mob.
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King
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« Reply #24 on: June 30, 2015, 08:45:03 AM »

I love that Naso wants us to "see things from the other's perspective" when he's never done it himself.
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