Current status of SSM in the holdout states (MAP)

[DemPGH]

I'd much rather she be removed (and I don't think she has any business being in public service given her actions), but there's no readily available way to do that, and since she is refusing a court order, and refusing to perform a service she was elected to perform, jail is the only option, and I applaud justice being served.

I think it might help nip these sorts of 'pleas' over religious beliefs in the bud. She's a four times married hypocrite which most of those who gripe over such things tend to be. Christians who are comfortable in their faith don't scream victimisation when asked to do a job.

I expected this to be humorous in retrospect, didn't expect it to be so soon.  Brilliant strategy now wasn't it?  You can always count on passionate people to just shut up by jailing them.

But it's obviously not about "shutting her up," it's about making her comply with the law. Matter of fact, I'm perfectly happy to watch her media whore and to continue making a fool of herself, comparing herself to Rocky or whatever. And now that one of her deputies will stand up to her and not be bullied by her, and will in fact do her job, that's great. Do let her keep talking and posturing and crusading and taking time off.

Now she's taking off till Monday, and if she comes back and interferes again, she'll really have exposed herself.

It's like if I decided in a similar position that I am not going to grant hunting license and/or gun license applications because I morally disapprove of them, I'd end up in jail. If I decide my moral conscience won't let me continuing paying the mortgage, guess what? The bank's going to take the house back. So, you can't let this woman in her position continue to just defy the law and discriminate against people simply because she feels like it. Hiding behind her religion is a cheap opt-out for avoiding a civil obligation she has accepted (by being elected) and which she simply does not want to do, and that's the risk with "religious objections." Kim Davis is a living straw man!

[SteveRogers]

It is now clear that she isn't required to get involved, she can just let her deputies do any SSM licenses. So if she blocks them again I think there will be less sympathy. She has to actively get in the way of stopping her deputies instead of just letting it happen. That wont look like her religious liberty is being violated, that will look like discrimination.

Only the hardcore will back her if she stops her deputies from issuing licenses while she lobbies and/or goes through the courts to try and get her name off licenses. She can just step aside while she tries to get relief from the gov, legislature or courts. Anything more will be seen as mean spirited and self-serving.

It appears that the problem has been solved. Dominic Holden, a deputy clerk, will just blow Davis off, and ignore any order that she gives that he is not to issue SSM licenses, and instead issue them in accordance with the court's order. I suppose Kim Davis could attempt to fire Holden, but the court will probably just issue an order that her firing has no force and effect.

Unfortunately I don't think it's 100% clear whether or not this solves the problem. It is entirely a matter of state law whether marriage licenses issued by a deputy clerk  over the County Clerk's objection are valid. Someone from the state government needs to step in and clarify this ASAP.

[H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY]

It is now clear that she isn't required to get involved, she can just let her deputies do any SSM licenses. So if she blocks them again I think there will be less sympathy. She has to actively get in the way of stopping her deputies instead of just letting it happen. That wont look like her religious liberty is being violated, that will look like discrimination.

Only the hardcore will back her if she stops her deputies from issuing licenses while she lobbies and/or goes through the courts to try and get her name off licenses. She can just step aside while she tries to get relief from the gov, legislature or courts. Anything more will be seen as mean spirited and self-serving.

It appears that the problem has been solved. Dominic Holden, a deputy clerk, will just blow Davis off, and ignore any order that she gives that he is not to issue SSM licenses, and instead issue them in accordance with the court's order. I suppose Kim Davis could attempt to fire Holden, but the court will probably just issue an order that her firing has no force and effect.

Her firing wouldn't have any force because Dominic Holden is a Buzzfeed reporter. The clerk is Brian Mason.

[Torie]

It is now clear that she isn't required to get involved, she can just let her deputies do any SSM licenses. So if she blocks them again I think there will be less sympathy. She has to actively get in the way of stopping her deputies instead of just letting it happen. That wont look like her religious liberty is being violated, that will look like discrimination.

Only the hardcore will back her if she stops her deputies from issuing licenses while she lobbies and/or goes through the courts to try and get her name off licenses. She can just step aside while she tries to get relief from the gov, legislature or courts. Anything more will be seen as mean spirited and self-serving.

It appears that the problem has been solved. Dominic Holden, a deputy clerk, will just blow Davis off, and ignore any order that she gives that he is not to issue SSM licenses, and instead issue them in accordance with the court's order. I suppose Kim Davis could attempt to fire Holden, but the court will probably just issue an order that her firing has no force and effect.

Her firing wouldn't have any force because Dominic Holden is a Buzzfeed reporter. The clerk is Brian Mason.

Congrats. You got my post under the klieg lights on the Forum Community board.

[Likely Voter]

it appears this is all over. SSM licenses are being handed out by deputies while Davis hides in her office. While she is saying the licenses aren't valid, the governor says they are:

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The Attorney General and the County Attorney have also said they are valid so basically Davis is just an angry lady railing against the system without any power.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

Davis is the one who altered the licenses to remove her name. 

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http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/09/14/440215241/kim-davis-back-at-work-but-remains-defiant

She now has de facto the accommodation she was looking for.  I guess that means we live in a theocracy and gays no longer have any rights, or something.

[Clarko95 📚💰📈]

Davis is the one who altered the licenses to remove her name.  

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http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/09/14/440215241/kim-davis-back-at-work-but-remains-defiant

She now has de facto the accommodation she was looking for.  I guess that means we live in a theocracy and gays no longer have any rights, or something.

She could've just done this from the beginning instead of forbidding her clerks from doing so and causing a scene, but okay, it's always the liberals' fault in your world when it comes to LGBT rights.

[Attorney General, LGC Speaker, and Former PPT Dwarven Dragon]

Davis is the one who altered the licenses to remove her name. 

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http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/09/14/440215241/kim-davis-back-at-work-but-remains-defiant

She now has de facto the accommodation she was looking for.  I guess that means we live in a theocracy and gays no longer have any rights, or something.

She could've just done this from the beginning and not caused such a scene, but okay, it's always the liberals' fault in your world when it comes to LGBT rights.

What she wanted was for her office not to have to issue marriage licenses at all. Her acceptance of her deputies issuing licenses that don't have her signature on them is actually her accepting a compromise, not what she actually wants. Also, I hope you were being sarcastic about the theocracy thing, but if you aren't, no, this doesn't mean that. The licenses are being issued, the odds are that they are valid (Davis is not a legal authority, the State Attorney General is), the only thing that has changed is the identity of the person that is being asked to issue them.

[Oswald Acted Alone, You Kook]

Now I want to know if this will affect Alabama. They're doing the same thing Davis did, but they weren't sued.

[Likely Voter]

presumably all over the country there are county clerks and deputies who aren't comfortable with SSM who are deferring to colleagues and/or subordinates to issue the licenses in accordance with the law. Davis could have done this to begin with and so this whole thing was a narcissistic waste of time and clearly unfair to people of her county. Hopefully they will vote her out for using her public office as a platform for religious protest instead of doing her job.

[Attorney General, LGC Speaker, and Former PPT Dwarven Dragon]

Now I want to know if this will affect Alabama. They're doing the same thing Davis did, but they weren't sued.

Alabama is conservative enough to let this happen. If some district judge tries to change things, Roy Moore is willing to stand at the door to the jail and fight to the death to keep the county clerk out of prison.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

Davis is the one who altered the licenses to remove her name. 

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http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/09/14/440215241/kim-davis-back-at-work-but-remains-defiant

She now has de facto the accommodation she was looking for.  I guess that means we live in a theocracy and gays no longer have any rights, or something.

She could've just done this from the beginning instead of forbidding her clerks from doing so and causing a scene, but okay, it's always the liberals' fault in your world when it comes to LGBT rights.

Yes, she could have tried this from the beginning and taken things into her own hands in this way rather than the way she did, the questionable legality of such an action without explicit approval would still exist. The judge could also have put this forward as a solution, but he didn't. The Governor and the legislature could have seen this coming and put forward a way to resolve these disputes, but they didn't.  My criticism of liberalism here is just that it identifies this dysfunctional mess as a moral imperative so that the jailing of the 'witch' (she fills that archetype here) in itself represents some sort of progress, since to do otherwise would be to admit that non-liberals, whatever their personal or political faults, might have a modicum of a legitimate interest to consider.  Gay rights activists have of course not created this approach to the law which exalts the adversarial and excludes the mediational when it comes to social controversy; they have merely extended it.

[H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY]

Davis is the one who altered the licenses to remove her name. 

You must be logged in to read this quote.

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/09/14/440215241/kim-davis-back-at-work-but-remains-defiant

She now has de facto the accommodation she was looking for.  I guess that means we live in a theocracy and gays no longer have any rights, or something.

She could've just done this from the beginning instead of forbidding her clerks from doing so and causing a scene, but okay, it's always the liberals' fault in your world when it comes to LGBT rights.

Yes, she could have tried this from the beginning and taken things into her own hands in this way rather than the way she did, the questionable legality of such an action without explicit approval would still exist. The judge could also have put this forward as a solution, but he didn't. The Governor and the legislature could have seen this coming and put forward a way to resolve these disputes, but they didn't.  My criticism of liberalism here is just that it identifies this dysfunctional mess as a moral imperative so that the jailing of the 'witch' (she fills that archetype here) in itself represents some sort of progress, since to do otherwise would be to admit that non-liberals, whatever their personal or political faults, might have a modicum of a legitimate interest to consider.  Gay rights activists have of course not created this approach to the law which exalts the adversarial and excludes the mediational when it comes to social controversy; they have merely extended it.

Yes, people being treated equally is a moral imperative.

[Clarko95 📚💰📈]

Yes, she could have tried this from the beginning and taken things into her own hands in this way rather than the way she did, the questionable legality of such an action without explicit approval would still exist.

And this would have been worse than what she did how...? Authorizing her clerks to issue marriage licenses and then petitioning the government/courts for clarification would be worse than refusing to issue any and all licenses? Or simply resigning like the one clerk did in Texas (IIRC?) since she can't seem to do her job anymore?

That's what makes Kim Davis different from that Muslim truck driver who asked his company if someone else could deliver the beer, instead of him trying to stop the company from delivering anything he considered in violation of his beliefs entirely (and since we're on the subject, homophobia is not the same as teetotaling. LGBT people have actually been unjustly persecuted across history, while people who drink beer have not. Ditto on religious people in America, they're not persecuted because their discrimination isn't legally sanctioned). When Kim Davis stopped her whole office from doing their jobs, that's when she lost all credibility about "religious freedom".

She did this to herself, and got what she deserved (and more, I suppose, with her 15 minutes of fame).

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It's not their jobs to anticipate everyone's possible objections. If she has the objection, it's up to her to petition/ask for help.

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Yeah, no, that's complete bull. Liberals don't go around thinking "Wow, to avoid recognizing our opponents' beliefs, we need to jail them!". The reason she was jailed was that not only did she refused to do her job, she prohibited her subordinates from doing theirs. This isn't some grand drive by liberals to go around imprisoning everyone.

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lol the only one being antagonistic is religious conservatives with crap like this and Indiana-style RFRA laws. Gays got their civil marriage rights and ask for anti-discrimination laws, and that's it. It's the religious conservatives who bitterly try to carve out special exemptions for themselves.

Stop projecting the willfully undertaken bigoted actions of your side onto others.

[SteveRogers]

The judge asked her if a reasonable compromise would be to just let her deputies issue the licenses. She said, "absolutely not. I will not allow it." But then given some time to reflect on that decision in her jail cell, she decided, "you know what, I'm thinking we can make that work after all." So guess what, the system worked!

[/]

In the main index, this thread is shown as only "Re: Current status of SS," so I keep thinking it's referring to the current status of the Schutzstaffel.

[NeverAgain]

In the main index, this thread is shown as only "Re: Current status of SS," so I keep thinking it's referring to the current status of the Schutzstaffel.

I literally just had that same reaction clicking on this. I thought Atlas went neo-nazi on me

[All Along The Watchtower]

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Article.

[Oswald Acted Alone, You Kook]

An Alabama county has caved in, but two Kentucky Counties refuse.

http://ballotpedia.org/Local_government_responses_to_Obergefell_v._Hodges#tab=Kentucky

Making this 13 holdout and 1 unknown.

[Crumpets]

Since this thread has (MAP) in it's title, here's an updated one.

Orange - Not issuing any marriage licenses
Purple - Not issues any licenses only to same-sex couples
White - Unknown

[whiplash]

Conservatives must pay for everything they've done. The Black Lion rises.