Current status of SSM in the holdout states (MAP)

[DavidB.]

Until last year, Dutch municipalities had the right to hire officials who didn't want to issue marriage licences to gays - and we have had gay marriage since 2001...

[afleitch]

Until last year, Dutch municipalities had the right to hire officials who didn't want to issue marriage licences to gays - and we have had gay marriage since 2001...

Well I'm glad that's changed

[DemPGH]

I'd much rather she be removed (and I don't think she has any business being in public service given her actions), but there's no readily available way to do that, and since she is refusing a court order, and refusing to perform a service she was elected to perform, jail is the only option, and I applaud justice being served.

[afleitch]

I'd much rather she be removed (and I don't think she has any business being in public service given her actions), but there's no readily available way to do that, and since she is refusing a court order, and refusing to perform a service she was elected to perform, jail is the only option, and I applaud justice being served.

I think it might help nip these sorts of 'pleas' over religious beliefs in the bud. She's a four times married hypocrite which most of those who gripe over such things tend to be. Christians who are comfortable in their faith don't scream victimisation when asked to do a job.

[Smash255]

Until last year, Dutch municipalities had the right to hire officials who didn't want to issue marriage licences to gays - and we have had gay marriage since 2001...

Did those officials bar other officials in their jurisdiction of issuing the marriage licenses as well?

Btw, she was given the opportunity to get out of jail without having to issue the licenses herself and keep her job, by allowing the deputy clerks to issue them, she refused.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

This is fycked up.  They can't fire her for not doing this but they can jail her?

The world is oh so much safer I'm sure with her behind bars.   

She defied a direct court order. Go to jail. Go directly to jail. Do not pass Go, do not collect $200.

This isn't monopoly, we are talking about real people.

Again, what would you propose instead?

If it's not worth removing her from office, then it is not worth jailing her.   If she is duly elected and can't be removed because her office is a trust from the people, then she is answerable to the people who can choose not to reelect her.  Or, if she is answerable to the law for her duties, then there should be a way to directly remove her from her office if she is not abiding by them.

No, a federal judge cannot remove a state elected official from office for a number of reasons. It simply cannot be done. Actually, it doesn't really have anything to do with her being an elected official. Judges don't fire people. That's not how the law works. Whether or not her "employer" (the people of her county, as you point out) choose to "fire" her has nothing whatsoever to do with how federal law applies to her.

You understand that this is true of any case, right? When a congressman gets indicted on corruption charges, whether or not they resign their house seat won't effect whether they are convicted and go to jail. Same thing with private companies. When a CEO does something illegal, a judge doesn't fire them, the board does. The courts just apply the law to them.

Now you also understand that she's not being charged with a crime here, right? She's not serving a prison sentence. She doesn't have to stay in jail any longer than she chooses to.

Personally I find it sickening that people can be jailed without even being charged with a crime.

It is a failure of her not doing her job, not that she has done anything she shouldn't have.  Is this a matter of criminal law or isn't it?  I can't fathom why it should be.

[Classic Conservative]

I'm disgusted with this people have the right to object to do something, her rights don't stop when you're offended. If I was President I would lead an effort to impeach the judge, give Davis a position in my federal government and end this madness now.

[Slander and/or Libel]

So what's the remedy? How do you discourage people like her from disobeying court orders?

[afleitch]

So what's the remedy? How do you discourage people like her from disobeying court orders?

Nothing. If you say you're a Christian (and maybe a Jew, but not Muslims) you should be able to do what the f-ck you want.

[DemPGH]

I'd much rather she be removed (and I don't think she has any business being in public service given her actions), but there's no readily available way to do that, and since she is refusing a court order, and refusing to perform a service she was elected to perform, jail is the only option, and I applaud justice being served.

I think it might help nip these sorts of 'pleas' over religious beliefs in the bud. She's a four times married hypocrite which most of those who gripe over such things tend to be. Christians who are comfortable in their faith don't scream victimisation when asked to do a job.

Absolutely. First, she appears to be a convert to some ultra conservative branch of Christianity amidst all this. Second, I feared that the Hobby Lobby decision would encourage the kind of behavior she has shown, a smug defiance of the law in favor of whatever she thinks God wants her to do. That literally cannot happen in a free society because that's simply not what law is or how it's derived. 

[Mr. Illini]

I'm disgusted with this people have the right to object to do something, her rights don't stop when you're offended. If I was President I would lead an effort to impeach the judge, give Davis a position in my federal government and end this madness now.

There are no feelings or getting offended. This is the law. She is disobeying the Supreme Court of the United States. She must either fulfill her job or step down, or she must face the legal consequences.

Lock her up.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

So what's the remedy? How do you discourage people like her from disobeying court orders?

Why in the first place are federal judges making orders concerning the duties of county offices?  Wouldn't it make sense to drop the pretense of local control and just make them employees of the federal government?

[Gass3268]

I'm disgusted with this people have the right to object to do something, her rights don't stop when you're offended. If I was President I would lead an effort to impeach the judge, give Davis a position in my federal government and end this madness now.

She took an oath to do her job and uphold the Constitution. She is in contempt of every eligible court. Do your job, resign to let someone else do it, or go to jail for contempt.

[SteveRogers]

This is fycked up.  They can't fire her for not doing this but they can jail her?

The world is oh so much safer I'm sure with her behind bars.   

She defied a direct court order. Go to jail. Go directly to jail. Do not pass Go, do not collect $200.

This isn't monopoly, we are talking about real people.

Again, what would you propose instead?

If it's not worth removing her from office, then it is not worth jailing her.   If she is duly elected and can't be removed because her office is a trust from the people, then she is answerable to the people who can choose not to reelect her.  Or, if she is answerable to the law for her duties, then there should be a way to directly remove her from her office if she is not abiding by them.

No, a federal judge cannot remove a state elected official from office for a number of reasons. It simply cannot be done. Actually, it doesn't really have anything to do with her being an elected official. Judges don't fire people. That's not how the law works. Whether or not her "employer" (the people of her county, as you point out) choose to "fire" her has nothing whatsoever to do with how federal law applies to her.

You understand that this is true of any case, right? When a congressman gets indicted on corruption charges, whether or not they resign their house seat won't effect whether they are convicted and go to jail. Same thing with private companies. When a CEO does something illegal, a judge doesn't fire them, the board does. The courts just apply the law to them.

Now you also understand that she's not being charged with a crime here, right? She's not serving a prison sentence. She doesn't have to stay in jail any longer than she chooses to.

Personally I find it sickening that people can be jailed without even being charged with a crime.

It is a failure of her not doing her job, not that she has done anything she shouldn't have.  Is this a matter of criminal law or isn't it?  I can't fathom why it should be.

This is not a criminal matter; it is civil contempt. There is such thing as criminal contempt which involves  unconditional, fixed punishments and must be proven to a jury beyond a reasonable doubt, etc. This is not that. Here she gets out of jail the moment she (1) agrees to comply with the court order or (2) resigns. The point is not really punishment, but coercion.  

She did several things that she shouldn't have. First, she acted unconstitutionally when she denied same-sex couples the marriage licenses that they have a constitutional right to equal access to. But that is not what she was put in jail for. Next, when she lost her case in court, she blatantly refused to comply with the remedy lawfully ordered by the court. That is what she is in jail for.  

Supreme Court decisions simply wouldn't mean a thing if orders of federal courts could only be backed by wishes and stern looks from the judge.

[Slander and/or Libel]

So what's the remedy? How do you discourage people like her from disobeying court orders?

Why in the first place are federal judges making orders concerning the duties of county offices?  Wouldn't it make sense to drop the pretense of local control and just make them employees of the federal government?

Local employees are still bound by the supreme law of the land.

[SteveRogers]

So what's the remedy? How do you discourage people like her from disobeying court orders?

Why in the first place are federal judges making orders concerning the duties of county offices?  Wouldn't it make sense to drop the pretense of local control and just make them employees of the federal government?

The 14th amendment of the U.S. Constitution forbids the state governments from discriminating. The federal government is charged with enforcing that provision. County officials are representatives of the state government. This is not complicated.

[Clarko95 📚💰📈]

Guys, you're arguing with shua, who thinks discrimination against LGBT people should be legal if you can hide behind religion. Of course he doesn't get it. You're wasting your time.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

So what's the remedy? How do you discourage people like her from disobeying court orders?

Why in the first place are federal judges making orders concerning the duties of county offices?  Wouldn't it make sense to drop the pretense of local control and just make them employees of the federal government?

Local employees are still bound by the supreme law of the land.

What is the supreme law of the land that says that a county clerk has to issue marriage licenses?

The equal protection argument doesn't work here, since she has not been issuing marriage licenses to anyone.

If the Kentucky legislature finds her derelict on her duties under KY law, then she can be removed. Job duty descriptions of county offices are a matter of state not federal law.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

Guys, you're arguing with shua, who thinks discrimination against LGBT people should be legal if you can hide behind religion. Of course he doesn't get it. You're wasting your time.

They can argue with me if they want to.    And you can keep lighting strawmen on fire.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

This is fycked up.  They can't fire her for not doing this but they can jail her?

The world is oh so much safer I'm sure with her behind bars.   

She defied a direct court order. Go to jail. Go directly to jail. Do not pass Go, do not collect $200.

This isn't monopoly, we are talking about real people.

Again, what would you propose instead?

If it's not worth removing her from office, then it is not worth jailing her.   If she is duly elected and can't be removed because her office is a trust from the people, then she is answerable to the people who can choose not to reelect her.  Or, if she is answerable to the law for her duties, then there should be a way to directly remove her from her office if she is not abiding by them.

A federal judge has no authority by which to remove a state official from office.

[they don't love you like i love you]

This is fycked up.  They can't fire her for not doing this but they can jail her?

The world is oh so much safer I'm sure with her behind bars.   

They can't fire her because she's a state official. She has two easy options though:

1-Comply with federal law.
2-Resign her position so someone who will comply will take over.

Do either one and she's out easily. Do her job or make it so that someone else will. How else to handle it?

[Smash255]

This is fycked up.  They can't fire her for not doing this but they can jail her?

The world is oh so much safer I'm sure with her behind bars.   

They can't fire her because she's a state official. She has two easy options though:

1-Comply with federal law.
2-Resign her position so someone who will comply will take over.

Do either one and she's out easily. Do her job or make it so that someone else will. How else to handle it?

She even has another option as well, keep her job and remain in her position, but allow her deputy clerks to issue the licenses, she refused to do that as well.

[Blue3]

People being overjoyed at her being locked up is more than a little vindictive. It doesn't look good. And it really will turn people against the SSM cause.

Anyways, where's the map of the current holdouts?

[SteveRogers]

What is the supreme law of the land that says that a county clerk has to issue marriage licenses?

The Supreme Court itself effectively denied her appeal which means the district judge's order stands and is the supreme law of, at minimum, the Eastern District of Kentucky.

The equal protection argument doesn't work here, since she has not been issuing marriage licenses to anyone.

It doesn't work that way. Shutting the doors altogether whenever the gay couples come around is effectively the same as issuing the licenses in a discriminatory manner.

If the Kentucky legislature finds her derelict on her duties under KY law, then she can be removed. Job duty descriptions of county offices are a matter of state not federal law.

Correct, but wholly irrelevant. 

[they don't love you like i love you]

It also appears that the judge would've preferred a fine, but understood a fine would've done no good because she could easily get it fundraised from others.