Current status of SSM in the holdout states (MAP)
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MaxQue
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« Reply #125 on: September 03, 2015, 04:28:04 PM »

So what's the remedy? How do you discourage people like her from disobeying court orders?

Why in the first place are federal judges making orders concerning the duties of county offices?  Wouldn't it make sense to drop the pretense of local control and just make them employees of the federal government?

It began at a lower level, but there was appeals. Federal judge is the level at which things are right now (and it will stay there, as Supreme Court declined to hear her).

As a judge, he has a duty to uphold the court decisions and the Constitution by any ways at his disposal. Constitution and federal law overrules local control but I'm sure you know that.
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
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« Reply #126 on: September 03, 2015, 04:28:38 PM »

People should not be jailed for trivialities.  It is sad we live in an age where "liberals" cannot understand this.
Willfully refusing to perform a civil function and even refusing to allow another to do so is no triviality. It is sad that you are unable to understand this.
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ag
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« Reply #127 on: September 03, 2015, 04:29:29 PM »

It seems that the US District Judge who sent her to jail is a Republican appointee, who is personally opposed to gay marriage Smiley
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SUSAN CRUSHBONE
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« Reply #128 on: September 03, 2015, 04:30:28 PM »

I'm disgusted with this people have the right to object to do something, her rights don't stop when you're offended. If I was President I would lead an effort to impeach the judge, give Davis a position in my federal government and end this madness now.

her rights to violate federal court orders left and right? are those the rights you're talking about?
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shua
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« Reply #129 on: September 03, 2015, 04:30:43 PM »


What is the supreme law of the land that says that a county clerk has to issue marriage licenses?

The Supreme Court itself effectively denied her appeal which means the district judge's order stands and is the supreme law of, at minimum, the Eastern District of Kentucky.

The equal protection argument doesn't work here, since she has not been issuing marriage licenses to anyone.

It doesn't work that way. Shutting the doors altogether whenever the gay couples come around is effectively the same as issuing the licenses in a discriminatory manner.


If the Kentucky legislature finds her derelict on her duties under KY law, then she can be removed. Job duty descriptions of county offices are a matter of state not federal law.

Correct, but wholly irrelevant. 

Effectively?  No, not issuing marriage licenses doesn't have the same effect as issuing them only to some people. Maybe you were looking for another word?   
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« Reply #130 on: September 03, 2015, 04:31:16 PM »
« Edited: September 03, 2015, 04:36:58 PM by The Year Summer Ended In July »

shua what would you propose be done with some bureaucrat who prevented people in a certain region from being able to register to vote?
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SteveRogers
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« Reply #131 on: September 03, 2015, 04:32:10 PM »

Guys, you're arguing with shua, who thinks discrimination against LGBT people should be legal if you can hide behind religion. Of course he doesn't get it. You're wasting your time.

Let's try something then.

shua:
Let's say the relevant state official refuses to give anyone in the county concealed handgun licenses because they just don't like guns. Federal judge finds that this violates 2nd amendment rights, orders that person to issue the licenses. They refuse. What should the remedy be?

Hell, let's take the constitution and federalism out of it entirely. You're a defendant in state court in a run of the mill lawsuit. You lose, and you refuse to pay up. What do you think happens to you?
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SUSAN CRUSHBONE
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« Reply #132 on: September 03, 2015, 04:33:18 PM »

shua.

why do we even have federal courts, if people can violate their orders with no consequence?
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ag
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« Reply #133 on: September 03, 2015, 04:33:27 PM »

shua what would you propose be done with some bureaucrat who prevented people in a certain region from being able to register to vote.

Actually, this used to be a common practice. When courts would push election boards in the South to start registering blacks, they would stop registering anyone. In some cases, they collectively resigned and no steps would be taken to replace them.
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SteveRogers
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« Reply #134 on: September 03, 2015, 04:40:08 PM »


What is the supreme law of the land that says that a county clerk has to issue marriage licenses?

The Supreme Court itself effectively denied her appeal which means the district judge's order stands and is the supreme law of, at minimum, the Eastern District of Kentucky.

The equal protection argument doesn't work here, since she has not been issuing marriage licenses to anyone.

It doesn't work that way. Shutting the doors altogether whenever the gay couples come around is effectively the same as issuing the licenses in a discriminatory manner.


If the Kentucky legislature finds her derelict on her duties under KY law, then she can be removed. Job duty descriptions of county offices are a matter of state not federal law.

Correct, but wholly irrelevant. 

Effectively?  No, not issuing marriage licenses doesn't have the same effect as issuing them only to some people. Maybe you were looking for another word?   

Yes it does. Either way, gay couples don't get their marriages licenses for no reason other than because they're gay.

But look, we could go back and forth all day about the proper interpretation and application of the Equal Protection clause, but that's not actually the issue here. It's clear that you disagree with the district judge's original ruling that Davis's actions violated the constitution. But that's over and done. The Supreme Court says so. The question here is what the proper remedy should be when one refuses to comply with a federal court's order. 
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Torie
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« Reply #135 on: September 03, 2015, 04:41:50 PM »
« Edited: September 03, 2015, 04:46:29 PM by Torie »

This county clerk in Rowan County has doubled down, by claiming that her deputies willing to issue marriage licenses to same sex couples (5 of the 6, with the 6th being her son, so she seems willing to take her son down with her), have no force and effect. She might be in jail for some time. If an elected official refuses to perform their duties in accordance with law, such an official should be impeached, or somehow removed, or a Court should basically take over the duties of the office through a special master. We are a nations of laws, not persons, and if otherwise, this nation would cease to be a civilized nation. It has nothing to do with the merits of SSM, and everything to do with the rule of law.

To engage in some psychobabble, this clerk strikes me as a narcissist. Everything revolves around her desires, the rest including performing her duties, be damned (and probably she took an oath, she is now violating, to follow the law, when she was sworn into office). If she had any decency at all, she would just resign, stating that performing the job now violates her conscience. Why does she not do what seems obvious to anyone who respects the rule of law?
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shua
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« Reply #136 on: September 03, 2015, 04:48:07 PM »

shua what would you propose be done with some bureaucrat who prevented people in a certain region from being able to register to vote.

You need to be registered to vote in a certain county in order to vote in that county.  You do not need to be registered as married in a certain county in order to be considered married as a resident of that county.  So the situations are not quite comparable as to the severity of the situation and the need for an immediate remedy.  The laws of KY should be updated to reflect the situation in an era where SSM is legal, which they haven't yet.  There's no need for the Court to bring down its wrath at this point.

btw, as a general rule, I don't think the legal recognition of a marriage should ultimately depend on the obtaining of a license.
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afleitch
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« Reply #137 on: September 03, 2015, 04:52:42 PM »

Jesus shua you sound like a goddam fool. You really do. You're critiquing constitutional law and somersaulting over logic to support a narcissist who won't do her job or allow those she has authority over to do theirs.
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« Reply #138 on: September 03, 2015, 04:54:04 PM »

To engage in some psychobabble, this clerk strikes me as a narcissist. Everything revolves around her desires, the rest including performing her duties, be damned (and probably she took an oath, she is now violating, to follow the law, when she was sworn into office). If she had any decency at all, she would just resign, stating that performing the job now violates her conscience. Why does she not do what seems obvious to anyone who respects the rule of law?

This just strikes me as a way to get fame and money. She knows conservative Christians are gullible idiots, and she's seen what happened with the pizza people and Chick-fil-a, so this is probably a stunt to get rich quick. I don't doubt she probably hates the gays like most conservative Christians do, but why pass up a golden opportunity?
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MaxQue
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« Reply #139 on: September 03, 2015, 04:54:24 PM »

shua what would you propose be done with some bureaucrat who prevented people in a certain region from being able to register to vote.
btw, as a general rule, I don't think the legal recognition of a marriage should ultimately depend on the obtaining of a license.

Constitution and court decisions are superior to any law of the Kentucky legislature, so they is no reason to wait after them.

Well, you might think that, but, right now, the recognition DO depends on the license.
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« Reply #140 on: September 03, 2015, 04:59:59 PM »

shua what would you propose be done with some bureaucrat who prevented people in a certain region from being able to register to vote.

You need to be registered to vote in a certain county in order to vote in that county.  You do not need to be registered as married in a certain county in order to be considered married as a resident of that county.  So the situations are not quite comparable as to the severity of the situation and the need for an immediate remedy.  The laws of KY should be updated to reflect the situation in an era where SSM is legal, which they haven't yet.  There's no need for the Court to bring down its wrath at this point.

btw, as a general rule, I don't think the legal recognition of a marriage should ultimately depend on the obtaining of a license.

If all it takes to deny marriage licenses is for a county clerk to refuse to issue them and there are NO consequences for doing so, there will be a lot more county clerks doing this. Really this line of logic is ridiculous. Why should Rowan County, KY be the only county in the country where one can not get a same-sex marriage license? Because one woman doesn't like it?
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shua
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« Reply #141 on: September 03, 2015, 05:05:55 PM »

Guys, you're arguing with shua, who thinks discrimination against LGBT people should be legal if you can hide behind religion. Of course he doesn't get it. You're wasting your time.

Let's try something then.

shua:
Let's say the relevant state official refuses to give anyone in the county concealed handgun licenses because they just don't like guns. Federal judge finds that this violates 2nd amendment rights, orders that person to issue the licenses. They refuse. What should the remedy be?
 

It would be a flawed decision on the Courts part.   The 2nd amendment is about the right to bear arms, not the government's duty to issue permits.  I would think that a person could go to the next county and get their concealed weapons permit there.  Or if that is not allowed, then no person should be denied their right to a concealed weapon even if they have no permit, since no such permit is available.   Or just find another person to issue the licenses.   (I'm reading that Kim Davis is not allowing others to issue these licenses, I'm not at all clear on how this is possible, or why this authority to overrule them on this just be not recognized as valid)

Would jailing such a person who refused gun permits be protested on the left?  A few years ago I would have said yes, but at this point I'm not sure.
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MaxQue
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« Reply #142 on: September 03, 2015, 05:14:48 PM »

(I'm reading that Kim Davis is not allowing others to issue these licenses, I'm not at all clear on how this is possible, or why this authority to overrule them on this just be not recognized as valid)

The power to emit licence is given to the county clerk, Kim Davis. She is allowed to delegate it to her deputies. The deputies only have the authority to issue them at her will.

And her will is to not issue them.

As for your second question, I asked myself that question, too, and I concluded than the judge (which is opposed to SSM, by the way) saw than the Kentucky law didn't allowed him to allow deputies to overrule her. I suppose it's something of the kind "if a deputy do something than the clerk disagree with, it's invalid"

Well, in any case, she can dismiss their deputizing powers them before they grant one if they get allowed.
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shua
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« Reply #143 on: September 03, 2015, 05:22:11 PM »

shua what would you propose be done with some bureaucrat who prevented people in a certain region from being able to register to vote.

You need to be registered to vote in a certain county in order to vote in that county.  You do not need to be registered as married in a certain county in order to be considered married as a resident of that county.  So the situations are not quite comparable as to the severity of the situation and the need for an immediate remedy.  The laws of KY should be updated to reflect the situation in an era where SSM is legal, which they haven't yet.  There's no need for the Court to bring down its wrath at this point.

btw, as a general rule, I don't think the legal recognition of a marriage should ultimately depend on the obtaining of a license.

If all it takes to deny marriage licenses is for a county clerk to refuse to issue them and there are NO consequences for doing so, there will be a lot more county clerks doing this. Really this line of logic is ridiculous. Why should Rowan County, KY be the only county in the country where one can not get a same-sex marriage license? Because one woman doesn't like it?

I am not suggesting that as a long-range solution, I was explaining why that would not be a matter of immediate threat before the legislature could deal with the issue of officials who refuse to do this part of their duties.
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MaxQue
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« Reply #144 on: September 03, 2015, 05:24:44 PM »

shua what would you propose be done with some bureaucrat who prevented people in a certain region from being able to register to vote.

You need to be registered to vote in a certain county in order to vote in that county.  You do not need to be registered as married in a certain county in order to be considered married as a resident of that county.  So the situations are not quite comparable as to the severity of the situation and the need for an immediate remedy.  The laws of KY should be updated to reflect the situation in an era where SSM is legal, which they haven't yet.  There's no need for the Court to bring down its wrath at this point.

btw, as a general rule, I don't think the legal recognition of a marriage should ultimately depend on the obtaining of a license.

If all it takes to deny marriage licenses is for a county clerk to refuse to issue them and there are NO consequences for doing so, there will be a lot more county clerks doing this. Really this line of logic is ridiculous. Why should Rowan County, KY be the only county in the country where one can not get a same-sex marriage license? Because one woman doesn't like it?

I am not suggesting that as a long-range solution, I was explaining why that would not be a matter of immediate threat before the legislature could deal with the issue of officials who refuse to do this part of their duties.

Honestly, given her behaviour, I don't see her obeying to Kentucky laws either. I also presume removing her would do nothing to solve the problem on the long term, they will just reelect her at the next election.
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SteveRogers
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« Reply #145 on: September 03, 2015, 05:25:20 PM »

Unfortunately, whether or not the deputy clerks have the authority to issue valid marriage licenses in the absence of the County Clerk is absolutely a question of Kentucky state law that the state courts may have to decide if it comes to that. The Kentucky government should immediately begin whatever impeachment proceedings are needed to remove a county clerk. Short of that, I wonder if Kentucky law allows a local judge or someone to step in and issue marriage licenses in the clerk's stead.  
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« Reply #146 on: September 03, 2015, 05:25:39 PM »

shua what would you propose be done with some bureaucrat who prevented people in a certain region from being able to register to vote.

You need to be registered to vote in a certain county in order to vote in that county.  You do not need to be registered as married in a certain county in order to be considered married as a resident of that county.  So the situations are not quite comparable as to the severity of the situation and the need for an immediate remedy.  The laws of KY should be updated to reflect the situation in an era where SSM is legal, which they haven't yet.  There's no need for the Court to bring down its wrath at this point.

btw, as a general rule, I don't think the legal recognition of a marriage should ultimately depend on the obtaining of a license.

If all it takes to deny marriage licenses is for a county clerk to refuse to issue them and there are NO consequences for doing so, there will be a lot more county clerks doing this. Really this line of logic is ridiculous. Why should Rowan County, KY be the only county in the country where one can not get a same-sex marriage license? Because one woman doesn't like it?

I am not suggesting that as a long-range solution, I was explaining why that would not be a matter of immediate threat before the legislature could deal with the issue of officials who refuse to do this part of their duties.

Justice delayed is justice denied.

"For years now I have heard the word 'Wait!' It rings in the ear of every Negro with a piercing familiarity. This 'wait' has almost always meant 'never.'" - Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
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shua
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« Reply #147 on: September 03, 2015, 05:26:08 PM »

Jesus shua you sound like a goddam fool. You really do. You're critiquing constitutional law and somersaulting over logic to support a narcissist who won't do her job or allow those she has authority over to do theirs.

You may have trouble keeping up with my line of thought but that's no reason to get nasty.
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SUSAN CRUSHBONE
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« Reply #148 on: September 03, 2015, 05:28:48 PM »

Jesus shua you sound like a goddam fool. You really do. You're critiquing constitutional law and somersaulting over logic to support a narcissist who won't do her job or allow those she has authority over to do theirs.

You may have trouble keeping up with my line of thought but that's no reason to get nasty.

"the gays are just not smart enough to understand why they shouldn't have rights "
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SteveRogers
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« Reply #149 on: September 03, 2015, 05:28:58 PM »

shua what would you propose be done with some bureaucrat who prevented people in a certain region from being able to register to vote.

You need to be registered to vote in a certain county in order to vote in that county.  You do not need to be registered as married in a certain county in order to be considered married as a resident of that county.  So the situations are not quite comparable as to the severity of the situation and the need for an immediate remedy.  The laws of KY should be updated to reflect the situation in an era where SSM is legal, which they haven't yet.  There's no need for the Court to bring down its wrath at this point.

btw, as a general rule, I don't think the legal recognition of a marriage should ultimately depend on the obtaining of a license.

If all it takes to deny marriage licenses is for a county clerk to refuse to issue them and there are NO consequences for doing so, there will be a lot more county clerks doing this. Really this line of logic is ridiculous. Why should Rowan County, KY be the only county in the country where one can not get a same-sex marriage license? Because one woman doesn't like it?

I am not suggesting that as a long-range solution, I was explaining why that would not be a matter of immediate threat before the legislature could deal with the issue of officials who refuse to do this part of their duties.

But it seems to be your position that federal judges should never be able to jail anyone for contempt, no?
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