Current status of SSM in the holdout states (MAP)
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Author Topic: Current status of SSM in the holdout states (MAP)  (Read 22292 times)
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« Reply #175 on: September 04, 2015, 11:48:37 AM »

Here is a video of the confrontation of the gay couple and the clerk who refused to issue them a marriage license. It's quite dramatic really, with one of the gay guys sort of sounding like I would sound in that situation.

She really should stay in jail until she resigns, unless the court really has the power to cut her out of the loop, in which event her authority over her clerks is at an end. That strikes me as problematical. I can see how her refusing to issue SSM licenses comports with her religious conscience, but what I cannot see, and what she did not answer in the video, is why her religious beliefs impel her to try to hold onto a job, that she simply cannot perform per her religious beliefs. It would be like someone who is a pacifist in an army platoon demanding to hold onto his or her job while refusing to shoot a gun. So my conscience does not bother me having her rot in jail until she does the right thing. She will get out if all else fails, when her term of office expires. I assume that she cannot run for reelection while in jail.

She's not resigning in order to make a stand on the point that county clerks should not be forced to violate their religious beliefs on this issue. If she resigns, she's conceding that she was wrong to not issue the licenses.
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Torie
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« Reply #176 on: September 04, 2015, 11:54:50 AM »
« Edited: September 04, 2015, 11:57:33 AM by Torie »

Here is a video of the confrontation of the gay couple and the clerk who refused to issue them a marriage license. It's quite dramatic really, with one of the gay guys sort of sounding like I would sound in that situation.

She really should stay in jail until she resigns, unless the court really has the power to cut her out of the loop, in which event her authority over her clerks is at an end. That strikes me as problematical. I can see how her refusing to issue SSM licenses comports with her religious conscience, but what I cannot see, and what she did not answer in the video, is why her religious beliefs impel her to try to hold onto a job, that she simply cannot perform per her religious beliefs. It would be like someone who is a pacifist in an army platoon demanding to hold onto his or her job while refusing to shoot a gun. So my conscience does not bother me having her rot in jail until she does the right thing. She will get out if all else fails, when her term of office expires. I assume that she cannot run for reelection while in jail.

She's not resigning in order to make a stand on the point that county clerks should not be forced to violate their religious beliefs on this issue. If she resigns, she's conceding that she was wrong to not issue the licenses.

Yes, and that is the problem. It is not really about her religious conscience, but rather about her belief that she is above the civil law, and need only follow "God's law." Given that mentality, it's jail time, and that is true even if one wants to assert that her religious conscience requires her to ignore civil law whenever the two conflict. Hey, the longer she stays in jail, the more of martyr she can feel that she is, so maybe it's all worth it for her. Hopefully they cut off her pay while she is in jail (80K a year I might add, which seems excessive for a rather menial job in a rather small rural county with a low cost of living, but I digress).
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Attorney General, LGC Speaker, and Former PPT Dwarven Dragon
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« Reply #177 on: September 04, 2015, 12:05:13 PM »

Here is a video of the confrontation of the gay couple and the clerk who refused to issue them a marriage license. It's quite dramatic really, with one of the gay guys sort of sounding like I would sound in that situation.

She really should stay in jail until she resigns, unless the court really has the power to cut her out of the loop, in which event her authority over her clerks is at an end. That strikes me as problematical. I can see how her refusing to issue SSM licenses comports with her religious conscience, but what I cannot see, and what she did not answer in the video, is why her religious beliefs impel her to try to hold onto a job, that she simply cannot perform per her religious beliefs. It would be like someone who is a pacifist in an army platoon demanding to hold onto his or her job while refusing to shoot a gun. So my conscience does not bother me having her rot in jail until she does the right thing. She will get out if all else fails, when her term of office expires. I assume that she cannot run for reelection while in jail.

She's not resigning in order to make a stand on the point that county clerks should not be forced to violate their religious beliefs on this issue. If she resigns, she's conceding that she was wrong to not issue the licenses.

Yes, and that is the problem. It is not really about her religious conscience, but rather about her belief that she is above the civil law, and need only follow "God's law." Given that mentality, it's jail time, and that is true even if one wants to assert that her religious conscience requires her to ignore civil law whenever the two conflict. Hey, the longer she stays in jail, the more of martyr she can feel that she is, so maybe it's all worth it for her. Hopefully they cut off her pay while she is in jail (80K a year I might add, which seems excessive for a rather menial job in a rather small rural county with a low cost of living, but I digress).

The salary can only be taken away by the legislature. And the republican controlled Senate is pretty solidly in support of Davis.
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shua
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« Reply #178 on: September 04, 2015, 03:08:43 PM »

Here is a video of the confrontation of the gay couple and the clerk who refused to issue them a marriage license. It's quite dramatic really, with one of the gay guys sort of sounding like I would sound in that situation.

She really should stay in jail until she resigns, unless the court really has the power to cut her out of the loop, in which event her authority over her clerks is at an end. That strikes me as problematical. I can see how her refusing to issue SSM licenses comports with her religious conscience, but what I cannot see, and what she did not answer in the video, is why her religious beliefs impel her to try to hold onto a job, that she simply cannot perform per her religious beliefs. It would be like someone who is a pacifist in an army platoon demanding to hold onto his or her job while refusing to shoot a gun. So my conscience does not bother me having her rot in jail until she does the right thing. She will get out if all else fails, when her term of office expires. I assume that she cannot run for reelection while in jail.

She's not resigning in order to make a stand on the point that county clerks should not be forced to violate their religious beliefs on this issue. If she resigns, she's conceding that she was wrong to not issue the licenses.

It would appear that way at this point.  Though if she had resigned earlier it could have made a more radical statement about her disapproval, that she is unwilling to continue serving a system which she believes is legitimating something contrary to God's law.
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Oswald Acted Alone, You Kook
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« Reply #179 on: September 04, 2015, 04:33:17 PM »
« Edited: September 04, 2015, 04:40:12 PM by Join Atlas After Dark! »

UPDATED:

Now we are at 14 holdout and 1 unknown. (Knott, Kentucky)

Alabama: Autauga, Bibb, Chambers, Choctaw, Clarke, Cleburne, Covington, Geneva, Marengo, Pike, and Washington

Kentucky: Clinton and Whitley

Texas: Irion

Updates will no longer be scheduled and will happen as it happens.
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politicus
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« Reply #180 on: September 04, 2015, 04:34:44 PM »

UPDATED:

Now we are at 14 holdout and 1 unknown. (Knott, Kentucky)

Alabama: Autauga, Bibb, Chambers, Choctaw, Clarke, Cleburne, Covington, Geneva, Marengo, Pike, and Washington

Kentucky: Clinton, and Whitley

Texas: Irion

How can Knott keep being unknown? Nobody pressuring them to give an answer?
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Oswald Acted Alone, You Kook
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« Reply #181 on: September 04, 2015, 04:48:16 PM »

This  is where I got the information.
http://ballotpedia.org/Local_government_responses_to_Obergefell_v._Hodges#tab=Alabama
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politicus
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« Reply #182 on: September 04, 2015, 05:00:45 PM »


Sure, but I was just wondering how a county can keep being "undecided" or undeclared on something like this.
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Attorney General, LGC Speaker, and Former PPT Dwarven Dragon
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« Reply #183 on: September 04, 2015, 06:07:13 PM »


The page is still on the august 21 version...
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Oswald Acted Alone, You Kook
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« Reply #184 on: September 04, 2015, 06:27:05 PM »
« Edited: September 10, 2015, 01:03:24 PM by Join Atlas After Dark! »

That's strange, it was updated a few hours ago.
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H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY
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« Reply #185 on: September 04, 2015, 09:19:15 PM »


Sure, but I was just wondering how a county can keep being "undecided" or undeclared on something like this.

Perhaps no gay couples have applied for a marriage license?
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Joe Republic
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« Reply #186 on: September 05, 2015, 12:19:44 AM »

I get that the judge felt that a fine would be pointless given the inevitable gofundme response from fundies.  But applying steadily increasing fines for each day she refuses to do her job would have been preferable to jail, which even the affected couples did not want to see happen to her.  Also, that way, a steady stream of money could have been transferred daily from disgusting religious people and into the treasury of a county where 29% of its residents live below the poverty line.


It seems that the US District Judge who sent her to jail is a Republican appointee, who is personally opposed to gay marriage Smiley

And Kim Davis was elected as a Democrat.  We are through the looking glass here.
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Torie
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« Reply #187 on: September 05, 2015, 08:31:29 AM »

I get that the judge felt that a fine would be pointless given the inevitable gofundme response from fundies.  But applying steadily increasing fines for each day she refuses to do her job would have been preferable to jail, which even the affected couples did not want to see happen to her.  Also, that way, a steady stream of money could have been transferred daily from disgusting religious people and into the treasury of a county where 29% of its residents live below the poverty line.


It seems that the US District Judge who sent her to jail is a Republican appointee, who is personally opposed to gay marriage Smiley



And Kim Davis was elected as a Democrat.  We are through the looking glass here.

The Judge was concerned that if she was out of jail, she would order her staff not to issue licenses. leaving the same sex couples in the lurch. It is kind of weird. I don't know why the judge could not just order that staff could sign the licenses themselves under his authority, and order them not to follow her directives.
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shua
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« Reply #188 on: September 05, 2015, 09:26:34 PM »

I get that the judge felt that a fine would be pointless given the inevitable gofundme response from fundies.  But applying steadily increasing fines for each day she refuses to do her job would have been preferable to jail, which even the affected couples did not want to see happen to her.  Also, that way, a steady stream of money could have been transferred daily from disgusting religious people and into the treasury of a county where 29% of its residents live below the poverty line.


It seems that the US District Judge who sent her to jail is a Republican appointee, who is personally opposed to gay marriage Smiley



And Kim Davis was elected as a Democrat.  We are through the looking glass here.

The Judge was concerned that if she was out of jail, she would order her staff not to issue licenses. leaving the same sex couples in the lurch. It is kind of weird. I don't know why the judge could not just order that staff could sign the licenses themselves under his authority, and order them not to follow her directives.

The Judge said for the staff to issue the licenses while she is in jail, but has admitted he's not sure if they'll be legally binding without her signature.
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Brittain33
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« Reply #189 on: September 05, 2015, 09:42:51 PM »

I get that the judge felt that a fine would be pointless given the inevitable gofundme response from fundies.  But applying steadily increasing fines for each day she refuses to do her job would have been preferable to jail, which even the affected couples did not want to see happen to her.  Also, that way, a steady stream of money could have been transferred daily from disgusting religious people and into the treasury of a county where 29% of its residents live below the poverty line.


It seems that the US District Judge who sent her to jail is a Republican appointee, who is personally opposed to gay marriage Smiley



And Kim Davis was elected as a Democrat.  We are through the looking glass here.

The Judge was concerned that if she was out of jail, she would order her staff not to issue licenses. leaving the same sex couples in the lurch. It is kind of weird. I don't know why the judge could not just order that staff could sign the licenses themselves under his authority, and order them not to follow her directives.

The Judge said for the staff to issue the licenses while she is in jail, but has admitted he's not sure if they'll be legally binding without her signature.

I wonder what it would mean for them not to be legally binding. Who would have standing to challenge them, and in what forum would they do so?
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« Reply #190 on: September 05, 2015, 11:32:02 PM »

I get that the judge felt that a fine would be pointless given the inevitable gofundme response from fundies.  But applying steadily increasing fines for each day she refuses to do her job would have been preferable to jail, which even the affected couples did not want to see happen to her.  Also, that way, a steady stream of money could have been transferred daily from disgusting religious people and into the treasury of a county where 29% of its residents live below the poverty line.


It seems that the US District Judge who sent her to jail is a Republican appointee, who is personally opposed to gay marriage Smiley



And Kim Davis was elected as a Democrat.  We are through the looking glass here.

The Judge was concerned that if she was out of jail, she would order her staff not to issue licenses. leaving the same sex couples in the lurch. It is kind of weird. I don't know why the judge could not just order that staff could sign the licenses themselves under his authority, and order them not to follow her directives.

The Judge said for the staff to issue the licenses while she is in jail, but has admitted he's not sure if they'll be legally binding without her signature.

I wonder what it would mean for them not to be legally binding. Who would have standing to challenge them, and in what forum would they do so?

The "loser" in any divorce I guess
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Brittain33
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« Reply #191 on: September 07, 2015, 08:02:10 AM »

I don't know if this has been shared already, but in light of the PR black eye GoFundMe has gotten from its inadvertent association with anti-gay and anti-African-American "heroes," it has modified its policies to shut down such efforts, specifically  “campaigns in defense of formal charges or claims of heinous crimes, violent, hateful, sexual or discriminatory acts.” I imagine the #freekimdavis campaign falls under the campaign in defense of discriminatory acts. She may need a kick starter to reap her $800,000.
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Attorney General, LGC Speaker, and Former PPT Dwarven Dragon
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« Reply #192 on: September 08, 2015, 12:43:29 AM »

Huckabee compares putting Kim Davis in jail to the Dred Scott Decision:

http://www.lgbtqnation.com/2015/09/mike-huckabee-compares-kim-davis-fight-against-marriage-equality-to-abraham-lincolns-fight-against-slavery/
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« Reply #193 on: September 08, 2015, 01:48:08 PM »

Kim Davis released from Jail, but may go back if she interferes with her deputies issuing of SSM licenses.
http://www.lgbtqnation.com/2015/09/breaking-kim-davis-is-being-released-from-jail/
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« Reply #194 on: September 08, 2015, 02:25:17 PM »

Praise Christ, Kim Davis had been released.
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SteveRogers
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« Reply #195 on: September 08, 2015, 03:20:28 PM »

Any bets on whether she'll be back in jail within the next month?
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Likely Voter
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« Reply #196 on: September 08, 2015, 04:31:06 PM »

It is now clear that she isn't required to get involved, she can just let her deputies do any SSM licenses. So if she blocks them again I think there will be less sympathy. She has to actively get in the way of stopping her deputies instead of just letting it happen. That wont look like her religious liberty is being violated, that will look like discrimination.

Only the hardcore will back her if she stops her deputies from issuing licenses while she lobbies and/or goes through the courts to try and get her name off licenses. She can just step aside while she tries to get relief from the gov, legislature or courts. Anything more will be seen as mean spirited and self-serving.
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shua
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« Reply #197 on: September 09, 2015, 11:51:15 PM »

I'd much rather she be removed (and I don't think she has any business being in public service given her actions), but there's no readily available way to do that, and since she is refusing a court order, and refusing to perform a service she was elected to perform, jail is the only option, and I applaud justice being served.

I think it might help nip these sorts of 'pleas' over religious beliefs in the bud.
She's a four times married hypocrite which most of those who gripe over such things tend to be. Christians who are comfortable in their faith don't scream victimisation when asked to do a job.

I expected this to be humorous in retrospect, didn't expect it to be so soon.  Brilliant strategy now wasn't it?  You can always count on passionate people to just shut up by jailing them.
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afleitch
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« Reply #198 on: September 10, 2015, 03:47:16 AM »

I'd much rather she be removed (and I don't think she has any business being in public service given her actions), but there's no readily available way to do that, and since she is refusing a court order, and refusing to perform a service she was elected to perform, jail is the only option, and I applaud justice being served.

I think it might help nip these sorts of 'pleas' over religious beliefs in the bud.
She's a four times married hypocrite which most of those who gripe over such things tend to be. Christians who are comfortable in their faith don't scream victimisation when asked to do a job.

I expected this to be humorous in retrospect, didn't expect it to be so soon.  Brilliant strategy now wasn't it?  You can always count on passionate people to just shut up by jailing them.

She is single handedly destroying any credibility religious exemption might have had. And you're cheering her on.
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Torie
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« Reply #199 on: September 10, 2015, 10:48:21 AM »

It is now clear that she isn't required to get involved, she can just let her deputies do any SSM licenses. So if she blocks them again I think there will be less sympathy. She has to actively get in the way of stopping her deputies instead of just letting it happen. That wont look like her religious liberty is being violated, that will look like discrimination.

Only the hardcore will back her if she stops her deputies from issuing licenses while she lobbies and/or goes through the courts to try and get her name off licenses. She can just step aside while she tries to get relief from the gov, legislature or courts. Anything more will be seen as mean spirited and self-serving.


It appears that the problem has been solved. Dominic Holden, a deputy clerk, will just blow Davis off, and ignore any order that she gives that he is not to issue SSM licenses, and instead issue them in accordance with the court's order. I suppose Kim Davis could attempt to fire Holden, but the court will probably just issue an order that her firing has no force and effect.
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