Current status of SSM in the holdout states (MAP)

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

This is fycked up.  They can't fire her for not doing this but they can jail her?

The world is oh so much safer I'm sure with her behind bars.   

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

This is fycked up.  They can't fire her for not doing this but they can jail her?

The world is oh so much safer I'm sure with her behind bars.   

She defied a direct court order. Go to jail. Go directly to jail. Do not pass Go, do not collect $200.

This isn't monopoly, we are talking about real people.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

This is fycked up.  They can't fire her for not doing this but they can jail her?

The world is oh so much safer I'm sure with her behind bars.   

She defied a direct court order. Go to jail. Go directly to jail. Do not pass Go, do not collect $200.

This isn't monopoly, we are talking about real people.

If you are I broke the law and refused to abide by a Court order what do you think would happen?

It's clear what would happen.  The Courts can lock up anyone they like for the stupidest of reasons.  And liberals across the country are celebrating.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

This is fycked up.  They can't fire her for not doing this but they can jail her?

The world is oh so much safer I'm sure with her behind bars.   

She defied a direct court order. Go to jail. Go directly to jail. Do not pass Go, do not collect $200.

This isn't monopoly, we are talking about real people.

Again, what would you propose instead?

If it's not worth removing her from office, then it is not worth jailing her.   If she is duly elected and can't be removed because her office is a trust from the people, then she is answerable to the people who can choose not to reelect her.  Or, if she is answerable to the law for her duties, then there should be a way to directly remove her from her office if she is not abiding by them.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

This is fycked up.  They can't fire her for not doing this but they can jail her?

The world is oh so much safer I'm sure with her behind bars.   

She defied a direct court order. Go to jail. Go directly to jail. Do not pass Go, do not collect $200.

This isn't monopoly, we are talking about real people.

If you are I broke the law and refused to abide by a Court order what do you think would happen?

It's clear what would happen.  The Courts can lock up anyone they like for the stupidest of reasons.  And liberals across the country are celebrating.

They locked her up not as a punishment, but as a way to try to compel her to follow the law. Real people are not able to obtain essential services because of her obstinacy. That's the real issue here.

"Essential services?" People for now have to get their marriage license in the next county.  Yes, it's not great but is that really the most burdensome thing in the world?   I would love to be in a position where I had to get my marriage license in the next county.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

This is fycked up.  They can't fire her for not doing this but they can jail her?

The world is oh so much safer I'm sure with her behind bars.    

She defied a direct court order. Go to jail. Go directly to jail. Do not pass Go, do not collect $200.

This isn't monopoly, we are talking about real people.

If you are I broke the law and refused to abide by a Court order what do you think would happen?

It's clear what would happen.  The Courts can lock up anyone they like for the stupidest of reasons.  And liberals across the country are celebrating.

They locked her up not as a punishment, but as a way to try to compel her to follow the law. Real people are not able to obtain essential services because of her obstinacy. That's the real issue here.

"Essential services?" People for now have to get their marriage license in the next county.  Yes, it's not great but is that really the most burdensome thing in the world?   I would love to be in a position where I had to get my marriage license in the next county.

Why should they have to? Why should this lady's desire to not do her job trump that? I don't understand why that's so important. And again, she could get out of jail this very second if she just agreed to do her job.

People should not be jailed for trivialities.  It is sad we live in an age where "liberals" cannot understand this.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

This is fycked up.  They can't fire her for not doing this but they can jail her?

The world is oh so much safer I'm sure with her behind bars.   

She defied a direct court order. Go to jail. Go directly to jail. Do not pass Go, do not collect $200.

This isn't monopoly, we are talking about real people.

Again, what would you propose instead?

If it's not worth removing her from office, then it is not worth jailing her.   If she is duly elected and can't be removed because her office is a trust from the people, then she is answerable to the people who can choose not to reelect her.  Or, if she is answerable to the law for her duties, then there should be a way to directly remove her from her office if she is not abiding by them.

No, a federal judge cannot remove a state elected official from office for a number of reasons. It simply cannot be done. Actually, it doesn't really have anything to do with her being an elected official. Judges don't fire people. That's not how the law works. Whether or not her "employer" (the people of her county, as you point out) choose to "fire" her has nothing whatsoever to do with how federal law applies to her.

You understand that this is true of any case, right? When a congressman gets indicted on corruption charges, whether or not they resign their house seat won't effect whether they are convicted and go to jail. Same thing with private companies. When a CEO does something illegal, a judge doesn't fire them, the board does. The courts just apply the law to them.

Now you also understand that she's not being charged with a crime here, right? She's not serving a prison sentence. She doesn't have to stay in jail any longer than she chooses to.

Personally I find it sickening that people can be jailed without even being charged with a crime.

It is a failure of her not doing her job, not that she has done anything she shouldn't have.  Is this a matter of criminal law or isn't it?  I can't fathom why it should be.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

So what's the remedy? How do you discourage people like her from disobeying court orders?

Why in the first place are federal judges making orders concerning the duties of county offices?  Wouldn't it make sense to drop the pretense of local control and just make them employees of the federal government?

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

So what's the remedy? How do you discourage people like her from disobeying court orders?

Why in the first place are federal judges making orders concerning the duties of county offices?  Wouldn't it make sense to drop the pretense of local control and just make them employees of the federal government?

Local employees are still bound by the supreme law of the land.

What is the supreme law of the land that says that a county clerk has to issue marriage licenses?

The equal protection argument doesn't work here, since she has not been issuing marriage licenses to anyone.

If the Kentucky legislature finds her derelict on her duties under KY law, then she can be removed. Job duty descriptions of county offices are a matter of state not federal law.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

Guys, you're arguing with shua, who thinks discrimination against LGBT people should be legal if you can hide behind religion. Of course he doesn't get it. You're wasting your time.

They can argue with me if they want to.    And you can keep lighting strawmen on fire.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

What is the supreme law of the land that says that a county clerk has to issue marriage licenses?

The Supreme Court itself effectively denied her appeal which means the district judge's order stands and is the supreme law of, at minimum, the Eastern District of Kentucky.

The equal protection argument doesn't work here, since she has not been issuing marriage licenses to anyone.

It doesn't work that way. Shutting the doors altogether whenever the gay couples come around is effectively the same as issuing the licenses in a discriminatory manner.

If the Kentucky legislature finds her derelict on her duties under KY law, then she can be removed. Job duty descriptions of county offices are a matter of state not federal law.

Correct, but wholly irrelevant. 

Effectively?  No, not issuing marriage licenses doesn't have the same effect as issuing them only to some people. Maybe you were looking for another word?   

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

shua what would you propose be done with some bureaucrat who prevented people in a certain region from being able to register to vote.

You need to be registered to vote in a certain county in order to vote in that county.  You do not need to be registered as married in a certain county in order to be considered married as a resident of that county.  So the situations are not quite comparable as to the severity of the situation and the need for an immediate remedy.  The laws of KY should be updated to reflect the situation in an era where SSM is legal, which they haven't yet.  There's no need for the Court to bring down its wrath at this point.

btw, as a general rule, I don't think the legal recognition of a marriage should ultimately depend on the obtaining of a license.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

Guys, you're arguing with shua, who thinks discrimination against LGBT people should be legal if you can hide behind religion. Of course he doesn't get it. You're wasting your time.

Let's try something then.

shua:
Let's say the relevant state official refuses to give anyone in the county concealed handgun licenses because they just don't like guns. Federal judge finds that this violates 2nd amendment rights, orders that person to issue the licenses. They refuse. What should the remedy be?
 

It would be a flawed decision on the Courts part.   The 2nd amendment is about the right to bear arms, not the government's duty to issue permits.  I would think that a person could go to the next county and get their concealed weapons permit there.  Or if that is not allowed, then no person should be denied their right to a concealed weapon even if they have no permit, since no such permit is available.   Or just find another person to issue the licenses.   (I'm reading that Kim Davis is not allowing others to issue these licenses, I'm not at all clear on how this is possible, or why this authority to overrule them on this just be not recognized as valid)

Would jailing such a person who refused gun permits be protested on the left?  A few years ago I would have said yes, but at this point I'm not sure.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

shua what would you propose be done with some bureaucrat who prevented people in a certain region from being able to register to vote.

You need to be registered to vote in a certain county in order to vote in that county.  You do not need to be registered as married in a certain county in order to be considered married as a resident of that county.  So the situations are not quite comparable as to the severity of the situation and the need for an immediate remedy.  The laws of KY should be updated to reflect the situation in an era where SSM is legal, which they haven't yet.  There's no need for the Court to bring down its wrath at this point.

btw, as a general rule, I don't think the legal recognition of a marriage should ultimately depend on the obtaining of a license.

If all it takes to deny marriage licenses is for a county clerk to refuse to issue them and there are NO consequences for doing so, there will be a lot more county clerks doing this. Really this line of logic is ridiculous. Why should Rowan County, KY be the only county in the country where one can not get a same-sex marriage license? Because one woman doesn't like it?

I am not suggesting that as a long-range solution, I was explaining why that would not be a matter of immediate threat before the legislature could deal with the issue of officials who refuse to do this part of their duties.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

Jesus shua you sound like a goddam fool. You really do. You're critiquing constitutional law and somersaulting over logic to support a narcissist who won't do her job or allow those she has authority over to do theirs.

You may have trouble keeping up with my line of thought but that's no reason to get nasty.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

Jesus shua you sound like a goddam fool. You really do. You're critiquing constitutional law and somersaulting over logic to support a narcissist who won't do her job or allow those she has authority over to do theirs.

You may have trouble keeping up with my line of thought but that's no reason to get nasty.

"the gays are just not smart enough to understand why they shouldn't have rights "

I'm guessing you've never truly thought about the meaning of rights at all beyond a buzzfeed level discourse.   

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

shua what would you propose be done with some bureaucrat who prevented people in a certain region from being able to register to vote.

You need to be registered to vote in a certain county in order to vote in that county.  You do not need to be registered as married in a certain county in order to be considered married as a resident of that county.  So the situations are not quite comparable as to the severity of the situation and the need for an immediate remedy.  The laws of KY should be updated to reflect the situation in an era where SSM is legal, which they haven't yet.  There's no need for the Court to bring down its wrath at this point.

btw, as a general rule, I don't think the legal recognition of a marriage should ultimately depend on the obtaining of a license.

If all it takes to deny marriage licenses is for a county clerk to refuse to issue them and there are NO consequences for doing so, there will be a lot more county clerks doing this. Really this line of logic is ridiculous. Why should Rowan County, KY be the only county in the country where one can not get a same-sex marriage license? Because one woman doesn't like it?

I am not suggesting that as a long-range solution, I was explaining why that would not be a matter of immediate threat before the legislature could deal with the issue of officials who refuse to do this part of their duties.

But it seems to be your position that federal judges should never be able to jail anyone for contempt, no?

I will not claim never but it is fundamentally problematic and should be limited.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

Jesus shua you sound like a goddam fool. You really do. You're critiquing constitutional law and somersaulting over logic to support a narcissist who won't do her job or allow those she has authority over to do theirs.

You may have trouble keeping up with my line of thought but that's no reason to get nasty.

I'm not being nasty. You sound foolish. Sleep on it and read what you've been saying in the morning.

I haven't had a good night sleep lately so it may be a while before my mind reaches afleitch levels of spontaneous enlightenment.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

Jesus shua you sound like a goddam fool. You really do. You're critiquing constitutional law and somersaulting over logic to support a narcissist who won't do her job or allow those she has authority over to do theirs.

You may have trouble keeping up with my line of thought but that's no reason to get nasty.

I'm not being nasty. You sound foolish. Sleep on it and read what you've been saying in the morning.

I haven't had a good night sleep lately so it may be a while before my mind reaches afleitch levels of spontaneous enlightenment.

To succeed that you may need to become the next Rip Van Winkle.

It may require a persistent vegetative state before I come to the conclusion that someone being a narcissist means I should be perfectly ok with jailing them.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

Jesus shua you sound like a goddam fool. You really do. You're critiquing constitutional law and somersaulting over logic to support a narcissist who won't do her job or allow those she has authority over to do theirs.

You may have trouble keeping up with my line of thought but that's no reason to get nasty.

I'm not being nasty. You sound foolish. Sleep on it and read what you've been saying in the morning.

I haven't had a good night sleep lately so it may be a while before my mind reaches afleitch levels of spontaneous enlightenment.

To succeed that you may need to become the next Rip Van Winkle.

It may require a persistent vegetative state before I come to the conclusion that someone being a narcissist means I should be perfectly ok with jailing them.

She isn't being jailed for being a narcissist, she is being jailed for breaking the law and failing to comply with a direct court order.

Yes, and?  I was responding to afleitch's whining about how ashamed I should be.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

shua should be jailed for always being wrong

I wish I could assume you are kidding.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

Badger that had some puzzling and/or facile interpretations of what I said but I appreciate the compliments nonetheless.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

Badger that had some puzzling and/or facile interpretations of what I said but I appreciate the compliments nonetheless.

What you've been saying in this thread has been puzzling and/or facile. #FreeShua

Puzzling I'll grant you, but that's no reason to be patronizing.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

Here is a video of the confrontation of the gay couple and the clerk who refused to issue them a marriage license. It's quite dramatic really, with one of the gay guys sort of sounding like I would sound in that situation.

She really should stay in jail until she resigns, unless the court really has the power to cut her out of the loop, in which event her authority over her clerks is at an end. That strikes me as problematical. I can see how her refusing to issue SSM licenses comports with her religious conscience, but what I cannot see, and what she did not answer in the video, is why her religious beliefs impel her to try to hold onto a job, that she simply cannot perform per her religious beliefs. It would be like someone who is a pacifist in an army platoon demanding to hold onto his or her job while refusing to shoot a gun. So my conscience does not bother me having her rot in jail until she does the right thing. She will get out if all else fails, when her term of office expires. I assume that she cannot run for reelection while in jail.

She's not resigning in order to make a stand on the point that county clerks should not be forced to violate their religious beliefs on this issue. If she resigns, she's conceding that she was wrong to not issue the licenses.

It would appear that way at this point.  Though if she had resigned earlier it could have made a more radical statement about her disapproval, that she is unwilling to continue serving a system which she believes is legitimating something contrary to God's law.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

I get that the judge felt that a fine would be pointless given the inevitable gofundme response from fundies.  But applying steadily increasing fines for each day she refuses to do her job would have been preferable to jail, which even the affected couples did not want to see happen to her.  Also, that way, a steady stream of money could have been transferred daily from disgusting religious people and into the treasury of a county where 29% of its residents live below the poverty line.

It seems that the US District Judge who sent her to jail is a Republican appointee, who is personally opposed to gay marriage

And Kim Davis was elected as a Democrat.  We are through the looking glass here.

The Judge was concerned that if she was out of jail, she would order her staff not to issue licenses. leaving the same sex couples in the lurch. It is kind of weird. I don't know why the judge could not just order that staff could sign the licenses themselves under his authority, and order them not to follow her directives.

The Judge said for the staff to issue the licenses while she is in jail, but has admitted he's not sure if they'll be legally binding without her signature.