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Author Topic: Sex work  (Read 10216 times)
Famous Mortimer
WillipsBrighton
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« on: July 04, 2015, 08:47:55 AM »

Should sex work be legal?

Is sex work degrading?

It seems to me that in recent years the academic left has become more or less unified behind the idea that it should be legalized.

I'm of that opinion as well.

To me, it doesn't seem more degrading than any other form of wage labor.

I used to work 7 hours a day for about $70. At the same time, my roommate was a sex worker and she made $200 an hour.  Almost 3 times as much for 1/7th of the time. Doesn't seem oppressive to me.
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CrabCake
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« Reply #1 on: July 04, 2015, 10:11:27 AM »

Yes, with caution. We don't want a destigmatised industry to rise in demand too much, for very ... obvious reasons.
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ElectionsGuy
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« Reply #2 on: July 04, 2015, 10:18:24 AM »

Of course
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darthebearnc
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« Reply #3 on: July 04, 2015, 12:32:21 PM »

Yes, with the only two valid arguments against being abuse/violence and STDs
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freefair
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« Reply #4 on: July 04, 2015, 04:22:35 PM »

Yes, with caution. We don't want a destigmatised industry to rise in demand too much, for very ... obvious reasons.

Higher demand  increases wages though.
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CrabCake
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« Reply #5 on: July 04, 2015, 04:30:28 PM »

Yes, with caution. We don't want a destigmatised industry to rise in demand too much, for very ... obvious reasons.

Higher demand  increases wages though.

Or leads to, err, increased "supply". And there of course is a very, very major negative consequence to that; that the Netherlands and Germany are currently dealing with.

Anyway, I feel that a lot of this discussion is fairly moot in the Internet-era...
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Cory
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« Reply #6 on: July 04, 2015, 07:26:37 PM »

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Indy Texas
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« Reply #7 on: July 04, 2015, 07:49:10 PM »

I used to work 7 hours a day for about $70. At the same time, my roommate was a sex worker and she made $200 an hour.  Almost 3 times as much for 1/7th of the time. Doesn't seem oppressive to me.

I'm guessing your job didn't come with the risk of contracting a potentially deadly disease.

To say nothing of the high rates of assault on sex workers by their clients.
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Atlas Has Shrugged
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« Reply #8 on: July 04, 2015, 11:07:06 PM »

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TNF
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« Reply #9 on: July 05, 2015, 08:33:05 AM »

Yes, and we should stop putting sex on some kind of weird pedestal that it doesn't deserve.
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Mehmentum
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« Reply #10 on: July 05, 2015, 10:22:02 AM »

Yes, I think it should be legal.  People who want to do sex work should be free to do so.  As long as they aren't hurting anyone, I'm not going to try to run someone else's life.

Government regulation can reduce the risk of STDs and abuse.
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MyRescueKittehRocks
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« Reply #11 on: July 06, 2015, 01:35:29 AM »

No. You folks need to see the documentary Nefarious: Merchant of Souls. It's on the sex slave trade. You all know ISIS engages in this as well as its evil religicide of those they don't agree with theologically or morally.
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Famous Mortimer
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« Reply #12 on: July 06, 2015, 05:27:27 AM »

No. You folks need to see the documentary Nefarious: Merchant of Souls. It's on the sex slave trade. You all know ISIS engages in this as well as its evil religicide of those they don't agree with theologically or morally.

This ridiculous argument.

People in South East Asia are forced into slavery in the textile industry.

Do you oppose any making clothes for that reason?
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WVdemocrat
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« Reply #13 on: July 06, 2015, 12:49:56 PM »

I support decriminalization.
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JohnRM
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« Reply #14 on: July 06, 2015, 01:19:00 PM »


No.


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Yes.


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It is consistent with their effort to destroy families and tear down western civilization in the name of personal choice/pursuit of selfish desires.


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Of course, because the amount that you get paid is the measure of its rightness. Your value system is highly troubling.

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CrabCake
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« Reply #15 on: July 06, 2015, 01:23:05 PM »


No.


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Yes.


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It is consistent with their effort to destroy families and tear down western civilization in the name of personal choice/pursuit of selfish desires.


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Of course, because the amount that you get paid is the measure of its rightness. Your value system is highly troubling.



Surely that is a value of the right?

Anyway, sex work should be legalised with caution. People who want to rush into this sort of stuff should think of the, erm, consequences.
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Famous Mortimer
WillipsBrighton
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« Reply #16 on: July 06, 2015, 02:12:23 PM »

What are these consequences you keep alluding to? I'm legitimately asking. I started this thread to generate some actual debate. Debate other than "God says sex is bad so ban it"
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CrabCake
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« Reply #17 on: July 07, 2015, 07:51:29 PM »

Well the debate is still unsettled. That's why I thought your first line, about consensus amongst the academic left, struck me as curious. Although pretty much everybody agrees that being a sex worker should not be criminalised; there remains significant debate about the rest. The popular model at the moment, is the Swedish Law; which decriminalises selling sex, but goes after the johns. The idea is that legal prostitution has a negative impact on women and wider society, because it encourages growth in a profession that very few people willingly enter. We can talk about academic destigmatisation of sex work all we want, the role of a prostitute does not command respect in society (its definitely below similar low-status jobs that people are coerced into by circumstance). And therefore, to serve the demand, we see coercion. Pimpery is a natural consequence of legalised prostitution, and to serve their "demand" they focus on people with little means to effectively force them into prostitution: recent immigrants, the destitute, the mentally ill and the human trafficked. The easy responce would be to say "oh, well; we'll regulate it!"; but regulation is not foolproof (and Germany and the Netherlands' regulations were found to be wholly lacking.
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PJ
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« Reply #18 on: July 08, 2015, 01:28:19 AM »

I think it's questionable to claim that sex work is not degrading. While I think there's a lot of arguments in favor of legalizing sex work, the vast majority of people consider sex work degrading and would not want to engage in it personally. If it didn't pay as well as it did, the number of people employed as sex workers would certainly decrease even if it were to be legalized. The status quo of sex slavery as a thriving industry is completely unacceptable, and that's a far superior reason for legalization than any argument about the morality or lack thereof of selling sex. While the Nordic Model would be a huge improvement, I think a better alternative would be to legalize cooperative brothels under strict regulations to protect the labor rights of sex workers and prevent STDs.

Well the debate is still unsettled. That's why I thought your first line, about consensus amongst the academic left, struck me as curious. Although pretty much everybody agrees that being a sex worker should not be criminalised; there remains significant debate about the rest. The popular model at the moment, is the Swedish Law; which decriminalises selling sex, but goes after the johns. The idea is that legal prostitution has a negative impact on women and wider society, because it encourages growth in a profession that very few people willingly enter. We can talk about academic destigmatisation of sex work all we want, the role of a prostitute does not command respect in society (its definitely below similar low-status jobs that people are coerced into by circumstance). And therefore, to serve the demand, we see coercion. Pimpery is a natural consequence of legalised prostitution, and to serve their "demand" they focus on people with little means to effectively force them into prostitution: recent immigrants, the destitute, the mentally ill and the human trafficked. The easy responce would be to say "oh, well; we'll regulate it!"; but regulation is not foolproof (and Germany and the Netherlands' regulations were found to be wholly lacking.

Is it though? Why not simply legalize cooperative brothels? Since the largest problem with prostitution is the potential for exploitation of sex workers, legalizing sex work in a business model that aggressively protects the rights of workers and their freedom to leave the profession if they so choose and satisfies the demand for prostitution would be preferable. After all, people are going to be more likely to opt for a legal prostitution service then an illegal one and face the consequences, if they are given the option.

No. You folks need to see the documentary Nefarious: Merchant of Souls. It's on the sex slave trade. You all know ISIS engages in this as well as its evil religicide of those they don't agree with theologically or morally.

Legalizing sex work=/=legalizing sex slavery.
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Swedish Rainbow Capitalist Cheese
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« Reply #19 on: July 08, 2015, 03:38:38 AM »

I find it incredibly interesting from a Swedish perspective that in the US the left and right position on this is reversed compared to Sweden. Over here the left would decry you as the worst sort of neoliberal who sees women's bodies as trading goods if you supported legalizing this. Heck large part of the left doesn't even want to allow surrogate mothers, because it is rich couples "buying" poor women's wombs.
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JohnRM
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« Reply #20 on: July 08, 2015, 07:54:34 AM »

I find it incredibly interesting from a Swedish perspective that in the US the left and right position on this is reversed compared to Sweden. Over here the left would decry you as the worst sort of neoliberal who sees women's bodies as trading goods if you supported legalizing this. Heck large part of the left doesn't even want to allow surrogate mothers, because it is rich couples "buying" poor women's wombs.

The difference, as far as I can tell, is that unlike the Swedish left, which is primarily focused on what is best for society at large, the American left is focused on what is best for the individual and their own selfish desires. There are people who want access to prostitutes and religious folks are outraged at the idea; it's a win-win for the left.
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CrabCake
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« Reply #21 on: July 08, 2015, 08:03:24 AM »

I think even a legalised cooperative model creates that big issue: a legitimised "industry" with very little in the way of "supply", beyond those at the lowest rungs of society. I know everyone has annecdotes about Miss Law Student who is sooo empowered by prostitution, but she is an exception in the grand scheme of things.

 It would take a profound shift in societal values for prostitution to be recognised as "just another career" (and such a shift may in fact knock sex off its pedestal to the extent that the entire business model of prostitution itself is rendered moot).
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Fmr President & Senator Polnut
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« Reply #22 on: July 08, 2015, 08:23:56 AM »

I think it's a difficult balance. There's a knee-jerk reaction from the social libertarians of "duh, of course, it's just sex". But at the same time, the pearl clutchers worried about society and the "children". Prostitution is not known as the oldest profession for nothing.

I've known people, both male and female, who were sex workers. While I don't support the continued criminalisation of sex work at all, there are some serious issues related to that industry, such as drug abuse, violence etc that complete liberalisation won't fix. I mentioned this to one of the former sex workers I knew and she said "look, if it was legal... it might have been easier. But the problem with legalisation is everything becomes regulated and "safe". When there's enough money being offered, people are prepared to be unsafe... which just creates a darker and more dangerous underground".

I think it's a really, really important point.
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Grumpier Than Uncle Joe
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« Reply #23 on: July 08, 2015, 09:23:19 AM »

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CrabCake
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« Reply #24 on: July 08, 2015, 09:34:21 AM »

Yes Polnut I think you're where I'm at (I.e. in two minds). What I can't stand is the idea that legalisation and regulation is like a magic wand. After all the oil and weapons industries are legal and regulated, and I wouldn't call either of them a godsend.
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