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Author Topic: Sex work  (Read 10211 times)
Atlas Has Shrugged
ChairmanSanchez
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« Reply #25 on: July 08, 2015, 11:28:11 AM »

I find it incredibly interesting from a Swedish perspective that in the US the left and right position on this is reversed compared to Sweden. Over here the left would decry you as the worst sort of neoliberal who sees women's bodies as trading goods if you supported legalizing this. Heck large part of the left doesn't even want to allow surrogate mothers, because it is rich couples "buying" poor women's wombs.
Social Democracy taken to its logical conclusion, of course.
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Cory
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« Reply #26 on: July 08, 2015, 02:36:01 PM »

I find it incredibly interesting from a Swedish perspective that in the US the left and right position on this is reversed compared to Sweden. Over here the left would decry you as the worst sort of neoliberal who sees women's bodies as trading goods if you supported legalizing this. Heck large part of the left doesn't even want to allow surrogate mothers, because it is rich couples "buying" poor women's wombs.

To be fair though it kinda seems as if the far-left in Sweden has gone over the deep end into full-blown SJW territory in general.
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angus
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« Reply #27 on: July 08, 2015, 04:05:42 PM »


yes


yes
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Famous Mortimer
WillipsBrighton
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« Reply #28 on: July 08, 2015, 04:44:27 PM »

I find it incredibly interesting from a Swedish perspective that in the US the left and right position on this is reversed compared to Sweden. Over here the left would decry you as the worst sort of neoliberal who sees women's bodies as trading goods if you supported legalizing this. Heck large part of the left doesn't even want to allow surrogate mothers, because it is rich couples "buying" poor women's wombs.

To be fair though it kinda seems as if the far-left in Sweden has gone over the deep end into full-blown SJW territory in general.

No. SJWs are very much in favor of sex work. When I said the "academic left" I was trying to say SJWs without being inflammatory.
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Cory
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« Reply #29 on: July 08, 2015, 06:49:55 PM »

No. SJWs are very much in favor of sex work. When I said the "academic left" I was trying to say SJWs without being inflammatory.

Not from what I've seen. They tend to be very sex-negative.
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Clark Kent
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« Reply #30 on: July 08, 2015, 08:36:44 PM »

Should be strongly discouraged but ultimately legal, like tobacco, alcohol, and marijuana.
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Torie
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« Reply #31 on: July 09, 2015, 08:04:28 AM »

Yes, with caution. We don't want a destigmatised industry to rise in demand too much, for very ... obvious reasons.

Higher demand  increases wages though.

Or leads to, err, increased "supply". And there of course is a very, very major negative consequence to that; that the Netherlands and Germany are currently dealing with.

Anyway, I feel that a lot of this discussion is fairly moot in the Internet-era...

We have a winner here. Sex work is in practice already totally legal. The Internet has also decimated gay bars, but I digress.
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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #32 on: July 09, 2015, 11:59:49 AM »

I support the Swedish system.
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Cory
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« Reply #33 on: July 09, 2015, 03:25:19 PM »


Why is paying for sex inherently worse then selling sex? Even if the idea is to make it to where sex workers don't get arrested it still keeps the practice underground where it is easier to exploit sex workers as opposed to legalization and regulation.
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🦀🎂🦀🎂
CrabCake
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« Reply #34 on: July 09, 2015, 04:14:56 PM »

Legalisation + regulation has been a failed policy so far on an empirical basis, a nice idea which doesn't seem to work particularly well in practice.

Not that I'm particularly enamoured with the Nordic model. For starters, it does start to creep into outright harassment of prostitutes when lazily applied (sex workers have been thrown out of their housing because landlords don't want to be accused of second-hand pimpery). The focus with prostitutin has to be on helping people escape the sex industry.
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Famous Mortimer
WillipsBrighton
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« Reply #35 on: July 09, 2015, 05:58:06 PM »

Swedish system is ridiculous Moderate Hero-ism.
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WVdemocrat
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« Reply #36 on: July 09, 2015, 06:18:51 PM »

Swedish system is ridiculous Moderate Hero-ism.

How can you possibly support the legalization of prostitution? It is absolutely degrading to women and it re-enforces the idea of women as sex objects. Women are economically coerced into the sex industry and they have sex with men they would not otherwise have sex with. The plain fact is that these aren't well off women who become prostitutes, these women are typically poor, if not in poverty. There is no authentic consent in prostitution.
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Famous Mortimer
WillipsBrighton
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« Reply #37 on: July 09, 2015, 07:30:54 PM »

Swedish system is ridiculous Moderate Hero-ism.

How can you possibly support the legalization of prostitution? It is absolutely degrading to women and it re-enforces the idea of women as sex objects. Women are economically coerced into the sex industry and they have sex with men they would not otherwise have sex with. The plain fact is that these aren't well off women who become prostitutes, these women are typically poor, if not in poverty. There is no authentic consent in prostitution.

Women and men are economically coerced into every job ever. Do you think people go to work because it's fun?
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WVdemocrat
DimpledChad
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« Reply #38 on: July 09, 2015, 07:37:22 PM »

Swedish system is ridiculous Moderate Hero-ism.

How can you possibly support the legalization of prostitution? It is absolutely degrading to women and it re-enforces the idea of women as sex objects. Women are economically coerced into the sex industry and they have sex with men they would not otherwise have sex with. The plain fact is that these aren't well off women who become prostitutes, these women are typically poor, if not in poverty. There is no authentic consent in prostitution.

Women and men are economically coerced into every job ever. Do you think people go to work because it's fun?

If one of the major tenants of sex is consent, that is not authentic consent. They would never otherwise have sex with those men.
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Famous Mortimer
WillipsBrighton
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« Reply #39 on: July 09, 2015, 08:10:14 PM »

Swedish system is ridiculous Moderate Hero-ism.

How can you possibly support the legalization of prostitution? It is absolutely degrading to women and it re-enforces the idea of women as sex objects. Women are economically coerced into the sex industry and they have sex with men they would not otherwise have sex with. The plain fact is that these aren't well off women who become prostitutes, these women are typically poor, if not in poverty. There is no authentic consent in prostitution.

Women and men are economically coerced into every job ever. Do you think people go to work because it's fun?

If one of the major tenants of sex is consent, that is not authentic consent. They would never otherwise have sex with those men.

Again, there's no "authentic consent" with any work.
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Famous Mortimer
WillipsBrighton
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« Reply #40 on: July 09, 2015, 08:23:40 PM »

Basically, if prostitution is inherently rape, why isn't all work inherently slavery?
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WVdemocrat
DimpledChad
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« Reply #41 on: July 09, 2015, 08:38:26 PM »

Basically, if prostitution is inherently rape, why isn't all work inherently slavery?

That is reductio ad absurdum and you know it.

I haven't heard one good argument in favor of prostitution. It is absurd that anyone who calls themself a liberal could support it.
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Famous Mortimer
WillipsBrighton
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« Reply #42 on: July 09, 2015, 08:43:35 PM »

Basically, if prostitution is inherently rape, why isn't all work inherently slavery?

That is reductio ad absurdum and you know it.

In other words, you are unable to answer the question because you are wrong.
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WVdemocrat
DimpledChad
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« Reply #43 on: July 09, 2015, 08:45:27 PM »

Basically, if prostitution is inherently rape, why isn't all work inherently slavery?

That is reductio ad absurdum and you know it.

In other words, you are unable to answer the question because you are wrong.

No, it's not a legitimate argument. Sex and work are two entirely different things. You can't sit here and try to act as though somehow prostitution will be viewed as "just another job."
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Famous Mortimer
WillipsBrighton
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« Reply #44 on: July 09, 2015, 08:58:43 PM »

So your position is that it's wrong to force women to have sex but it's a-okay to force women to work in a hot kitchen 8 hours a day? That's exactly what you are saying.

Myself, I don't think either is necessarily "forced". People agree to do undesirable things for money within the context of our imperfect capitalist system.

If you wanted to argue that BOTH were "forced" and that everyone should just get a guaranteed minimum income and not have to work, that I could get behind, that would be logically consistent.

Although I guess you're now also saying that prostitution is different because prostitutes inherently have to be viewed negatively by society. How about rather than taking away their livelihood, we just stop viewing prostitutes negatively?
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WVdemocrat
DimpledChad
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« Reply #45 on: July 09, 2015, 09:09:11 PM »

So your position is that it's wrong to force women to have sex but it's a-okay to force women to work in a hot kitchen 8 hours a day? That's exactly what you are saying.

Myself, I don't think either is necessarily "forced". People agree to do undesirable things for money within the context of our imperfect capitalist system.

If you wanted to argue that BOTH were "forced" and that everyone should just get a guaranteed minimum income and not have to work, that I could get behind, that would be logically consistent.

Although I guess you're now also saying that prostitution is different because prostitutes inherently have to be viewed negatively by society. How about rather than taking away their livelihood, we just stop viewing prostitutes negatively?

It's not prostitutes I view negatively, it's prostitution! It's the message it would send to legalize it which I view negatively.

Legal prostitution creates an atmosphere where women are not equal humans to be respected, but are instead sex objects. Sex acts in prostitution are not mutual, they are very much one-sided and prostitution puts the woman in a subordinate position, where she is nothing more than a toy for the pleasure of men. We should be combating this type of patriarchal mindset rather than tacitly endorsing it.

My point about economic coercion stands, by the way. They wouldn't have sex with those men if not for money. It acts as force. The coercion of people into sex is a felony, the coercion of people into jobs is an economy. Your claim that they are the same is based on the premise that prostitution is just a normal nine-to-five job. Well, it's not. For god's sake, could you, for one moment, get outside of your bubble and realize what this is? It's destitution.
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Famous Mortimer
WillipsBrighton
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« Reply #46 on: July 09, 2015, 09:12:55 PM »

"The coercion of people into sex is a felony, the coercion of people into jobs is an economy"

Because you state a logical inconsistency bluntly does not negate the fact that it's a logical inconsistency. 
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WVdemocrat
DimpledChad
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« Reply #47 on: July 09, 2015, 09:18:18 PM »

"The coercion of people into sex is a felony, the coercion of people into jobs is an economy"

Because you state a logical inconsistency bluntly does not negate the fact that it's a logical inconsistency.

Me: Prostitutes are coerced into prostitution, therefore there is no authentic consent.

You: Should all laws be abolished now? Because the government is coercing people not to take part in activities which they make illegal. I mean, that's your logic, riiiiiiiiiight?


Anyway, were the other 155 words in my post so irrelevant that you couldn't even respond to them?
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Famous Mortimer
WillipsBrighton
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« Reply #48 on: July 09, 2015, 09:22:54 PM »

Me: Prostitution is like any other job.

You: No it's not because in prostitution there is no consent.

Me: There's no consent in any other jobs though.

You: But prostitution is different from other jobs.

Me: How?

You: Because there's no consent.
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Famous Mortimer
WillipsBrighton
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« Reply #49 on: July 09, 2015, 09:26:13 PM »

Why can't prostitution be like any other 9 to 5 job?

and don't say because there's no "legitimate consent" unless you can prove there's "legitimate consent" with working at Burger King. Which there isn't.

The only reason "prostitution is different" is because of society's hang ups.
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