Sex work

[WVdemocrat]

Why can't prostitution be like any other 9 to 5 job?

and don't say because there's no "legitimate consent" unless you can prove there's "legitimate consent" with working at Burger King. Which there isn't.

The only reason "prostitution is different" is because of society's hang ups.

"Society's hang ups" are why murder and kidnapping and rape are illegal.

Prostitution reinforces the idea of women as sex objects to be bought and sold. If we were to legalize it, we would be tacitly endorsing this type of patriarchal mindset. And by the way, you still have given no reasons whatsoever why prostitution should be legalized.

[PJ]

We should be combating this type of patriarchal mindset rather than tacitly endorsing it.

That's a strawman. Legalizing prostitution isn't endorsing it anymore than legalizing marijuana is endorsing its use, or legalizing abortion is an endorsement of abortion itself.

We can talk about how selling sex is morally questionable all day, but outlawing something does not make it go away. You're right to be concerned about the rights of sex workers, but banning it because of moral justifications doesn't do anything to address the thriving black market industry that exploits sex workers that exists when it is prohibited. Sure, regulation/legalization is not foolproof and ought to be structured differently than the countries that have implemented it thus far, but it's vastly preferable to the system of turning prostitution into a black market industry where prostitutes themselves are still legally punished when many of them are coerced.

[Famous Mortimer]

You're argument is textbook circular (ie BAD) logic.

You say consent only matters in prostitution because "prostitution is different" and your reason for it being different is that "consent matters in prostitution but not in any other job" What you are saying boils down to "prostitution is different because it's different" and that's obviously incredibly spurious.

[WVdemocrat]

You're argument is textbook circular (ie BAD) logic.

You say consent only matters in prostitution because "prostitution is different" and your reason for it being different is that "consent matters in prostitution but not in any other job" What you are saying boils down to "prostitution is different because it's different" and that's obviously incredibly spurious.

Why should prostitution be legalized?

[Famous Mortimer]

Why can't prostitution be like any other 9 to 5 job?

and don't say because there's no "legitimate consent" unless you can prove there's "legitimate consent" with working at Burger King. Which there isn't.

The only reason "prostitution is different" is because of society's hang ups.

"Society's hang ups" are why murder and kidnapping and rape are illegal.

Prostitution reinforces the idea of women as sex objects to be bought and sold. If we were to legalize it, we would be tacitly endorsing this type of patriarchal mindset. And by the way, you still have given no reasons whatsoever why prostitution should be legalized.

If prostitution reinforces the idea women are sex objects, how does wage labor not reinforce the idea that workers exist only to make profit for their bosses?

I'm guessing your answer will be "prostitution is different" and if I ask you how, you will say because there's no consent, but again not saying how that lack of consent is different from the lack of consent in wage labor.

Circular logic.

[WVdemocrat]

We can talk about how selling sex is morally questionable all day, but outlawing something does not make it go away.

So are we just supposed to accept this culture where women are the sex toys of men?!

You're right to be concerned about the rights of sex workers, but banning it because of moral justifications doesn't do anything to address the thriving black market industry that exploits sex workers that exists when it is prohibited. Sure, regulation/legalization is not foolproof and ought to be structured differently than the countries that have implemented it thus far, but it's vastly preferable to the system of turning prostitution into a black market industry where prostitutes themselves are still legally punished when many of them are coerced.

I've stated before that I support decriminalization.

[Famous Mortimer]

You're argument is textbook circular (ie BAD) logic.

You say consent only matters in prostitution because "prostitution is different" and your reason for it being different is that "consent matters in prostitution but not in any other job" What you are saying boils down to "prostitution is different because it's different" and that's obviously incredibly spurious.

Why should prostitution be legalized?

Same reason marijuana should be legalized. People want to engage in it and it doesn't necessarily hurt anyone. Things much worse are already legal.

[WVdemocrat]

If prostitution reinforces the idea women are sex objects, how does wage labor not reinforce the idea that workers exist only to make profit for their bosses?

It does. And the only reason workers do exist is to return a profit to their bosses.

[Famous Mortimer]

If prostitution reinforces the idea women are sex objects, how does wage labor not reinforce the idea that workers exist only to make profit for their bosses?

It does. And the only reason workers do exist is to return a profit to their bosses.

I don't understand how you can be cool with that and have that mindset but be outraged by prostitution. It's pure cognitive dissonance.

[Famous Mortimer]

Again, you seem to think if you say things that are totally inconsistent but you say them boldly, the force with which you say them makes them not inconsistent.

That is not the case.

[WVdemocrat]

You're argument is textbook circular (ie BAD) logic.

You say consent only matters in prostitution because "prostitution is different" and your reason for it being different is that "consent matters in prostitution but not in any other job" What you are saying boils down to "prostitution is different because it's different" and that's obviously incredibly spurious.

Why should prostitution be legalized?

Same reason marijuana should be legalized. People want to engage in it and it doesn't necessarily hurt anyone. Things much worse are already legal.

HAHAHAHAHA! "Doesn't hurt anyone." Are you kidding me?

The difference between normal laborers and prostitutes is that normal laborers are content doing the work they do.

The difference is that in society, certain things have to get done. The mail's got to be delivered every day. The shelves at grocery stores have got to be stocked. The school buses have got to pick up the kids. If prostitution is a normal job, that implies what prostitutes do is something that has to get done. "Men have got to get sex." According to you, that would fit perfectly up there with all of those. Thinking of prostitution as a normal nine-to-five job endorses the idea that men have got to have sex, and so a few women (prostitutes) have to be "sacrificed" for that - their entire lives, ruined.

[Famous Mortimer]

Good effort but the argument you no doubt just thought of, that the only work that counts as work is work that "has to be done" is also very very stupid. Very very stupid. Providing entertainment is work. No one needs to write magazine articles, or play professional sports, or record music, or do any other number of "unessential" things that are done for entrainment, but that is still very much work. So again, prostitution is no different.

[WVdemocrat]

Do you have no concerns whatsoever about the societal impact of this? Or are you just totally cool with women being considered sex objects?

[Famous Mortimer]

Do you have no concerns whatsoever about the societal impact of this? Or are you just totally cool with women being considered sex objects?

As I have said several times, it's not good but it's no worse than non-sex worker workers being viewed as tools for profit, something you are okay with.

[WVdemocrat]

Do you have no concerns whatsoever about the societal impact of this? Or are you just totally cool with women being considered sex objects?

As I have said several times, it's not good

So is your response concession, then?

We're talking about a broad societal impact here. It doesn't just affect the women who are prostitutes, it affects all women. You would see a significant decline in respect for women (not just women who are prostitutes) if this were to not only be legalized, but normalized.

You're advocating submission to patriarchy, I'm standing up for the fight.

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They are employed as workers to create profitable products or provide profitable services, but those people are much more than workers, they are people who have lives. I've never once said they existed on this earth to work, but rather they are employed for the purpose of work.

[Cory]

They are employed as workers to create profitable products or provide profitable services, but those people are much more than workers, they are people who have lives. I've never once said they existed on this earth to work, but rather they are employed for the purpose of work.

Just. Like. Prostitutes.

Famous Mortimer is really owning this thread.

[WVdemocrat]

They are employed as workers to create profitable products or provide profitable services, but those people are much more than workers, they are people who have lives. I've never once said they existed on this earth to work, but rather they are employed for the purpose of work.

Just. Like. Prostitutes.

Famous Mortimer is really owning this thread.

What kind of a life do you think they have outside of prostitution? Do you think they go to a nice home a night, and are surrounded by people who love them? Or do you think they have an unsatisfying life, where they never get to enjoy anything?

[Cory]

What kind of a life do you think they have outside of prostitution? Do you think they go to a nice home a night, and are surrounded by people who love them? Or do you think they have an unsatisfying life, where they never get to enjoy anything?

The same can be said for all kinds of people in "legitimate" fields of work. Especially low-income fields.

If prostitution was brought out of the dark and women involved could have more agency then perhaps things might start to change.

[WVdemocrat]

What kind of a life do you think they have outside of prostitution? Do you think they go to a nice home a night, and are surrounded by people who love them? Or do you think they have an unsatisfying life, where they never get to enjoy anything?

The same can be said for all kinds of people in "legitimate" fields of work. Especially low-income fields.

If prostitution was brought out of the dark and women involved could have more agency then perhaps things might start to change.

No, things can't change! They would still be sex objects! And to normalize or popularize prostitution would only enable the patriarchal mindset. We don't need girls growing up thinking that's all they're worth.

How can you think flipping burgers and having a man ejaculate inside of you are equally "work"?

[WVdemocrat]

Famous Mortimer, you have such a resigned position on this that it's depressing. Liberals (the ones not waging a war on women) are already ceding this before it ever becomes a mainstream issue. I really can't believe you're taking this stance. How can you just accept this as just a part of our society? The patriarchy, I mean. Are women just supposed to be okay with being treated like this because "men can't control themselves, men need sex"? Seriously?

Before this ever becomes a mainstream issue, are you seriously declaring that society can't change? Feminism has gained traction in recent years, yet you think we should cede this issue to anti-feminists. Unbelievable. This isn't an issue of personal freedom, the right to be a prostitute, this is an issue of personal dignity - the right to not be someone else's sex object. When feminists say they believe women can be breadwinners too, this isn't what they mean.

[Beet]

Yes, the question is- we generally recognize sexual coercion as being worse than nonsexual coercion. And anything done under economic pressure has a coercive element to it. The poorer you are, the worse it is. If you have a chemical addiction that you literally cannot control, or need to work in order so that your son or daughter has a place to sleep tomorrow night, then there is a coercive element, yes. So the question is- is that okay? Have we really thought through the implications of treating sex work as 'just another job'? Suppose a woman or man collecting unemployment insurance receives a job offer as a prostitute. Does s/he have to take it or be cut off as not seeking work? If you answer no to that question, is it not some sort of admission that selling sex is not exactly the same as flipping burgers?

It's more complicated than just 'a consenting adult just working a job', that's all we need to consider. It's certainly true that sex work is diverse; not all sex workers are impoverished and some of them really do have agency. As Torie said, that sort is typically already de facto legalized. And legalization of something is not the same as morally condoning it. I do not trust the police to deal with sex workers. I do not think johns are evil people who need to be locked up. I do not think either should feel dissuaded from reporting rape, abuse, or robbery because what they are doing is 'illegal' or shameful. Nor do I think any real harms are occurring from the act itself if it is really consensual. But to treat it as 'just another job'? No.

[World politics is up Schmitt creek]

To look at the arguments of the pro-prostitution liberal left is to enter a strange and frankly kind of gross world in which treating sex as an in principle separate sphere of life from employment--surely a novel and incomprehensible distinction to make!--is just one of 'society's hang-ups', consent to sex and consent to employment should be held to directly equivalent standards, and 'sex-negative' is a non-joke concept. It's amazing. I can't really argue against it, but I don't really feel like I have to because it's the Dr. Pepper of political positions: It just tastes 'off'.

Having said that, of course being a sex worker shouldn't be a crime.

[PJ]

We can talk about how selling sex is morally questionable all day, but outlawing something does not make it go away.

So are we just supposed to accept this culture where women are the sex toys of men?!

You're right to be concerned about the rights of sex workers, but banning it because of moral justifications doesn't do anything to address the thriving black market industry that exploits sex workers that exists when it is prohibited. Sure, regulation/legalization is not foolproof and ought to be structured differently than the countries that have implemented it thus far, but it's vastly preferable to the system of turning prostitution into a black market industry where prostitutes themselves are still legally punished when many of them are coerced.

I've stated before that I support decriminalization.

"Women being the sex toys of men" is much broader than prostitution itself. It's a product of sexism in society. In theory, sex work isn't an exclusively male-exploits-female interaction. In practice it works much differently, but the same is true strip clubs, pornography, and sex itself, and banning practices that are not inherently sexist seems like an inefficient and roundabout way to solve the problem.

Decriminalizing prostitution is better than the status quo; it's ridiculous to legally punish sex workers for their work, especially when many of them are enslaved. However, the key area decriminalization along the lines of the Nordic Model fails to address is the sex slave industry, and how it thrives under illegal prostitution.

[Cory]

No, things can't change! They would still be sex objects! And to normalize or popularize prostitution would only enable the patriarchal mindset. We don't need girls growing up thinking that's all they're worth.

So you admit that your position isn't based on anything logical or policy-based and is just moralistic grandstanding.

How can you think flipping burgers and having a man ejaculate inside of you are equally "work"?

Because they are.

[Cory]

To look at the arguments of the pro-prostitution liberal left is to enter a strange and frankly kind of gross world in which treating sex as an in principle separate sphere of life from employment--surely a novel and incomprehensible distinction to make!--is just one of 'society's hang-ups', consent to sex and consent to employment should be held to directly equivalent standards, and 'sex-negative' is a non-joke concept.

Reality and rationality may seem strange and gross to those living in a moralistic world of delusion and nonsense, yes.

It's amazing. I can't really argue against it, but I don't really feel like I have to because it's the Dr. Pepper of political positions: It just tastes 'off'.

I think that's all you really needed to say.