Sex work

[Famous Mortimer]

Should sex work be legal?

Is sex work degrading?

It seems to me that in recent years the academic left has become more or less unified behind the idea that it should be legalized.

I'm of that opinion as well.

To me, it doesn't seem more degrading than any other form of wage labor.

I used to work 7 hours a day for about $70. At the same time, my roommate was a sex worker and she made $200 an hour.  Almost 3 times as much for 1/7th of the time. Doesn't seem oppressive to me.

[Famous Mortimer]

No. You folks need to see the documentary Nefarious: Merchant of Souls. It's on the sex slave trade. You all know ISIS engages in this as well as its evil religicide of those they don't agree with theologically or morally.

This ridiculous argument.

People in South East Asia are forced into slavery in the textile industry.

Do you oppose any making clothes for that reason?

[Famous Mortimer]

What are these consequences you keep alluding to? I'm legitimately asking. I started this thread to generate some actual debate. Debate other than "God says sex is bad so ban it"

[Famous Mortimer]

I find it incredibly interesting from a Swedish perspective that in the US the left and right position on this is reversed compared to Sweden. Over here the left would decry you as the worst sort of neoliberal who sees women's bodies as trading goods if you supported legalizing this. Heck large part of the left doesn't even want to allow surrogate mothers, because it is rich couples "buying" poor women's wombs.

To be fair though it kinda seems as if the far-left in Sweden has gone over the deep end into full-blown SJW territory in general.

No. SJWs are very much in favor of sex work. When I said the "academic left" I was trying to say SJWs without being inflammatory.

[Famous Mortimer]

Swedish system is ridiculous Moderate Hero-ism.

[Famous Mortimer]

Swedish system is ridiculous Moderate Hero-ism.

How can you possibly support the legalization of prostitution? It is absolutely degrading to women and it re-enforces the idea of women as sex objects. Women are economically coerced into the sex industry and they have sex with men they would not otherwise have sex with. The plain fact is that these aren't well off women who become prostitutes, these women are typically poor, if not in poverty. There is no authentic consent in prostitution.

Women and men are economically coerced into every job ever. Do you think people go to work because it's fun?

[Famous Mortimer]

Swedish system is ridiculous Moderate Hero-ism.

How can you possibly support the legalization of prostitution? It is absolutely degrading to women and it re-enforces the idea of women as sex objects. Women are economically coerced into the sex industry and they have sex with men they would not otherwise have sex with. The plain fact is that these aren't well off women who become prostitutes, these women are typically poor, if not in poverty. There is no authentic consent in prostitution.

Women and men are economically coerced into every job ever. Do you think people go to work because it's fun?

If one of the major tenants of sex is consent, that is not authentic consent. They would never otherwise have sex with those men.

Again, there's no "authentic consent" with any work.

[Famous Mortimer]

Basically, if prostitution is inherently rape, why isn't all work inherently slavery?

[Famous Mortimer]

Basically, if prostitution is inherently rape, why isn't all work inherently slavery?

That is reductio ad absurdum and you know it.

In other words, you are unable to answer the question because you are wrong.

[Famous Mortimer]

So your position is that it's wrong to force women to have sex but it's a-okay to force women to work in a hot kitchen 8 hours a day? That's exactly what you are saying.

Myself, I don't think either is necessarily "forced". People agree to do undesirable things for money within the context of our imperfect capitalist system.

If you wanted to argue that BOTH were "forced" and that everyone should just get a guaranteed minimum income and not have to work, that I could get behind, that would be logically consistent.

Although I guess you're now also saying that prostitution is different because prostitutes inherently have to be viewed negatively by society. How about rather than taking away their livelihood, we just stop viewing prostitutes negatively?

[Famous Mortimer]

"The coercion of people into sex is a felony, the coercion of people into jobs is an economy"

Because you state a logical inconsistency bluntly does not negate the fact that it's a logical inconsistency. 

[Famous Mortimer]

Me: Prostitution is like any other job.

You: No it's not because in prostitution there is no consent.

Me: There's no consent in any other jobs though.

You: But prostitution is different from other jobs.

Me: How?

You: Because there's no consent.

[Famous Mortimer]

Why can't prostitution be like any other 9 to 5 job?

and don't say because there's no "legitimate consent" unless you can prove there's "legitimate consent" with working at Burger King. Which there isn't.

The only reason "prostitution is different" is because of society's hang ups.

[Famous Mortimer]

You're argument is textbook circular (ie BAD) logic.

You say consent only matters in prostitution because "prostitution is different" and your reason for it being different is that "consent matters in prostitution but not in any other job" What you are saying boils down to "prostitution is different because it's different" and that's obviously incredibly spurious.

[Famous Mortimer]

Why can't prostitution be like any other 9 to 5 job?

and don't say because there's no "legitimate consent" unless you can prove there's "legitimate consent" with working at Burger King. Which there isn't.

The only reason "prostitution is different" is because of society's hang ups.

"Society's hang ups" are why murder and kidnapping and rape are illegal.

Prostitution reinforces the idea of women as sex objects to be bought and sold. If we were to legalize it, we would be tacitly endorsing this type of patriarchal mindset. And by the way, you still have given no reasons whatsoever why prostitution should be legalized.

If prostitution reinforces the idea women are sex objects, how does wage labor not reinforce the idea that workers exist only to make profit for their bosses?

I'm guessing your answer will be "prostitution is different" and if I ask you how, you will say because there's no consent, but again not saying how that lack of consent is different from the lack of consent in wage labor.

Circular logic.

[Famous Mortimer]

You're argument is textbook circular (ie BAD) logic.

You say consent only matters in prostitution because "prostitution is different" and your reason for it being different is that "consent matters in prostitution but not in any other job" What you are saying boils down to "prostitution is different because it's different" and that's obviously incredibly spurious.

Why should prostitution be legalized?

Same reason marijuana should be legalized. People want to engage in it and it doesn't necessarily hurt anyone. Things much worse are already legal.

[Famous Mortimer]

If prostitution reinforces the idea women are sex objects, how does wage labor not reinforce the idea that workers exist only to make profit for their bosses?

It does. And the only reason workers do exist is to return a profit to their bosses.

I don't understand how you can be cool with that and have that mindset but be outraged by prostitution. It's pure cognitive dissonance.

[Famous Mortimer]

Again, you seem to think if you say things that are totally inconsistent but you say them boldly, the force with which you say them makes them not inconsistent.

That is not the case.

[Famous Mortimer]

Good effort but the argument you no doubt just thought of, that the only work that counts as work is work that "has to be done" is also very very stupid. Very very stupid. Providing entertainment is work. No one needs to write magazine articles, or play professional sports, or record music, or do any other number of "unessential" things that are done for entrainment, but that is still very much work. So again, prostitution is no different.

[Famous Mortimer]

Do you have no concerns whatsoever about the societal impact of this? Or are you just totally cool with women being considered sex objects?

As I have said several times, it's not good but it's no worse than non-sex worker workers being viewed as tools for profit, something you are okay with.

[Famous Mortimer]

Saying women should be just sex objects is indeed a horrible view. Luckily, no one is arguing for that here.

Everything DimpledChad says is in bad faith.

[Famous Mortimer]

Feminism has historically been about as dominated by the middle class as Marxism has been dominated by men... a cross class sisterhood of women is about as likely as a cross nation brother of men... and what of it?

This discussion isn't about Marxism, it's about sex work. And arguments such as 'sex work is just like any other work', 'the only difference from pornography is the presence of a camera', 'trust women to make their own decisions', and 'you're treating women as weak' are all functionally identical to standard libertarian and conservative arguments. By the way, so is 'is there really an epidemic of rape going on in college campuses?' Literally every time you address a women's issue, you take the right-wing position, using literally the same phrases that right-wingers use, and then try to wave it all away with 'Marxism'.

You calling out DimpledChad for arguing in bad faith because you think he ignored logical responses to his points is ironic, because I could say the same for you.

More logical fallacies. Now you're just doing ad hominem attacks. "These arguments are conservative arguements" 1) They're really not. I dare you go to to Tumblr and talk about banning sex work, you will get shouted down by a million angry college girls. 2) It doesn't even matter if the arguments are supported by the right or the left, it matters if they make sense. 

[Famous Mortimer]

White Knighting is not feminism.

[Famous Mortimer]

Just know that all the hypothetical liberal ladies you think you are impressing with your paternalistic stance actually think you are extremely patronizing and are policing womens' bodies (literally).

Your opposition to prostitution is based on 100% "Nice Guy-ism".

[Famous Mortimer]

Just know that all the hypothetical liberal ladies you think you are impressing with your paternalistic stance actually think you are extremely patronizing and are policing womens' bodies (literally).

Your opposition to prostitution is based on 100% "Nice Guy-ism".

WHY SHOULD PROSTITUTION BE LEGALIZED?

Same reason as weed. Do you oppose legalization of weed? Probably not. You've already shown multiple times you're capable of cognitive dissonance.