Sex work

[PJ]

I think it's questionable to claim that sex work is not degrading. While I think there's a lot of arguments in favor of legalizing sex work, the vast majority of people consider sex work degrading and would not want to engage in it personally. If it didn't pay as well as it did, the number of people employed as sex workers would certainly decrease even if it were to be legalized. The status quo of sex slavery as a thriving industry is completely unacceptable, and that's a far superior reason for legalization than any argument about the morality or lack thereof of selling sex. While the Nordic Model would be a huge improvement, I think a better alternative would be to legalize cooperative brothels under strict regulations to protect the labor rights of sex workers and prevent STDs.

Well the debate is still unsettled. That's why I thought your first line, about consensus amongst the academic left, struck me as curious. Although pretty much everybody agrees that being a sex worker should not be criminalised; there remains significant debate about the rest. The popular model at the moment, is the Swedish Law; which decriminalises selling sex, but goes after the johns. The idea is that legal prostitution has a negative impact on women and wider society, because it encourages growth in a profession that very few people willingly enter. We can talk about academic destigmatisation of sex work all we want, the role of a prostitute does not command respect in society (its definitely below similar low-status jobs that people are coerced into by circumstance). And therefore, to serve the demand, we see coercion. Pimpery is a natural consequence of legalised prostitution, and to serve their "demand" they focus on people with little means to effectively force them into prostitution: recent immigrants, the destitute, the mentally ill and the human trafficked. The easy responce would be to say "oh, well; we'll regulate it!"; but regulation is not foolproof (and Germany and the Netherlands' regulations were found to be wholly lacking.

Is it though? Why not simply legalize cooperative brothels? Since the largest problem with prostitution is the potential for exploitation of sex workers, legalizing sex work in a business model that aggressively protects the rights of workers and their freedom to leave the profession if they so choose and satisfies the demand for prostitution would be preferable. After all, people are going to be more likely to opt for a legal prostitution service then an illegal one and face the consequences, if they are given the option.

No. You folks need to see the documentary Nefarious: Merchant of Souls. It's on the sex slave trade. You all know ISIS engages in this as well as its evil religicide of those they don't agree with theologically or morally.

Legalizing sex work=/=legalizing sex slavery.

[PJ]

We should be combating this type of patriarchal mindset rather than tacitly endorsing it.

That's a strawman. Legalizing prostitution isn't endorsing it anymore than legalizing marijuana is endorsing its use, or legalizing abortion is an endorsement of abortion itself.

We can talk about how selling sex is morally questionable all day, but outlawing something does not make it go away. You're right to be concerned about the rights of sex workers, but banning it because of moral justifications doesn't do anything to address the thriving black market industry that exploits sex workers that exists when it is prohibited. Sure, regulation/legalization is not foolproof and ought to be structured differently than the countries that have implemented it thus far, but it's vastly preferable to the system of turning prostitution into a black market industry where prostitutes themselves are still legally punished when many of them are coerced.

[PJ]

We can talk about how selling sex is morally questionable all day, but outlawing something does not make it go away.

So are we just supposed to accept this culture where women are the sex toys of men?!

You're right to be concerned about the rights of sex workers, but banning it because of moral justifications doesn't do anything to address the thriving black market industry that exploits sex workers that exists when it is prohibited. Sure, regulation/legalization is not foolproof and ought to be structured differently than the countries that have implemented it thus far, but it's vastly preferable to the system of turning prostitution into a black market industry where prostitutes themselves are still legally punished when many of them are coerced.

I've stated before that I support decriminalization.

"Women being the sex toys of men" is much broader than prostitution itself. It's a product of sexism in society. In theory, sex work isn't an exclusively male-exploits-female interaction. In practice it works much differently, but the same is true strip clubs, pornography, and sex itself, and banning practices that are not inherently sexist seems like an inefficient and roundabout way to solve the problem.

Decriminalizing prostitution is better than the status quo; it's ridiculous to legally punish sex workers for their work, especially when many of them are enslaved. However, the key area decriminalization along the lines of the Nordic Model fails to address is the sex slave industry, and how it thrives under illegal prostitution.

[PJ]

Regardless of whether or not the pro-legalization arguments are right-wing (it's ridiculous to say that they are IMO), that doesn't work as a legitimate refutation of it. Chad, you're talking about the patriarchal mindset being encouraged by prostitution, but you haven't really addressed that the Nordic Model decriminalization you advocate for does nothing to address patriarchy and exploitation of women. It doesn't arrest sex workers themselves; that's common sense. It does continue to allow sex work to exist as a black market industry.

The vast majority of people employed in sex work would not choose to be in the business, yes. Is that what's controversial?

It feels like with the "legaliseit" brigade you can quote evidence all day, only to be met with the same trite ideological arguments treating sex like cannabis or some other tradable commodity.

Sex has a lot of societal connotations attached to it. We can argue all day about if it is good or bad to dress sex up in such a pedastel, but that is an academic discussion. In real life, sex work is different from flipping burgers. I know LOGICBOT3000 will come around to impersonate Spock and say "but crabcake that is firmly illogical". In answer,  that's all very good and great, but tell society that. Sex Work is different from other work, because in the eyes of society it is no matter what poxy hypothetical regulations the government places on it.

Legalisation and regulation seems like such a good idea in theory. I know why people are attached to it - it's elegant, it seems to please all sides and it definitely seems to have helped with ganja. Unfortunately, it has not lived up to its promise. We must change our minds when confronted with evidence, people.

I'm not sure I understand what you want people to change their mind to, since you advocated for "cautious legalization" on the first page.

[PJ]

Life as a prostitute is no cup of tea either. Women who are prostitutes are beaten commonly and typically have STDs. These women are afraid to come forward and report incidents to the police, and I realize that, which is why I support decriminalization. This would remove that fear of coming forward and reporting these types of incidents.

Decriminalization does not solve all of these problems and I'm a bit tired of it being used as a moderate hero free pass. Just because sex workers don't have to fear arrest does not mean they're going to go to the police to report that they are in poor working conditions. If they are in an abusive position where they have no rights, they're going to fear retribution from the pimps that are abusing them, assuming that they even have enough personal freedom to go to the police in the first place. Additionally, I don't see how allowing sex workers to talk to law enforcement does anything about the fact that many workers are already infected with STDs, something that the (although it's not perfect) heavy regulation for health, safety, and labor rights that you oppose could achieve.

Some sex workers are doing their jobs out of their own "free will." Yeah sure, it can be demeaning, but many stay there because it pays well. The assumption that decriminalization will lead to sex workers leaving the industry en masse because they can contact authorities and get out of the situation is naïve.