Sex work

[WVdemocrat]

I support decriminalization.

[WVdemocrat]

Swedish system is ridiculous Moderate Hero-ism.

How can you possibly support the legalization of prostitution? It is absolutely degrading to women and it re-enforces the idea of women as sex objects. Women are economically coerced into the sex industry and they have sex with men they would not otherwise have sex with. The plain fact is that these aren't well off women who become prostitutes, these women are typically poor, if not in poverty. There is no authentic consent in prostitution.

[WVdemocrat]

Swedish system is ridiculous Moderate Hero-ism.

How can you possibly support the legalization of prostitution? It is absolutely degrading to women and it re-enforces the idea of women as sex objects. Women are economically coerced into the sex industry and they have sex with men they would not otherwise have sex with. The plain fact is that these aren't well off women who become prostitutes, these women are typically poor, if not in poverty. There is no authentic consent in prostitution.

Women and men are economically coerced into every job ever. Do you think people go to work because it's fun?

If one of the major tenants of sex is consent, that is not authentic consent. They would never otherwise have sex with those men.

[WVdemocrat]

Basically, if prostitution is inherently rape, why isn't all work inherently slavery?

That is reductio ad absurdum and you know it.

I haven't heard one good argument in favor of prostitution. It is absurd that anyone who calls themself a liberal could support it.

[WVdemocrat]

Basically, if prostitution is inherently rape, why isn't all work inherently slavery?

That is reductio ad absurdum and you know it.

In other words, you are unable to answer the question because you are wrong.

No, it's not a legitimate argument. Sex and work are two entirely different things. You can't sit here and try to act as though somehow prostitution will be viewed as "just another job."

[WVdemocrat]

So your position is that it's wrong to force women to have sex but it's a-okay to force women to work in a hot kitchen 8 hours a day? That's exactly what you are saying.

Myself, I don't think either is necessarily "forced". People agree to do undesirable things for money within the context of our imperfect capitalist system.

If you wanted to argue that BOTH were "forced" and that everyone should just get a guaranteed minimum income and not have to work, that I could get behind, that would be logically consistent.

Although I guess you're now also saying that prostitution is different because prostitutes inherently have to be viewed negatively by society. How about rather than taking away their livelihood, we just stop viewing prostitutes negatively?

It's not prostitutes I view negatively, it's prostitution! It's the message it would send to legalize it which I view negatively.

Legal prostitution creates an atmosphere where women are not equal humans to be respected, but are instead sex objects. Sex acts in prostitution are not mutual, they are very much one-sided and prostitution puts the woman in a subordinate position, where she is nothing more than a toy for the pleasure of men. We should be combating this type of patriarchal mindset rather than tacitly endorsing it.

My point about economic coercion stands, by the way. They wouldn't have sex with those men if not for money. It acts as force. The coercion of people into sex is a felony, the coercion of people into jobs is an economy. Your claim that they are the same is based on the premise that prostitution is just a normal nine-to-five job. Well, it's not. For god's sake, could you, for one moment, get outside of your bubble and realize what this is? It's destitution.

[WVdemocrat]

"The coercion of people into sex is a felony, the coercion of people into jobs is an economy"

Because you state a logical inconsistency bluntly does not negate the fact that it's a logical inconsistency.

Me: Prostitutes are coerced into prostitution, therefore there is no authentic consent.

You: Should all laws be abolished now? Because the government is coercing people not to take part in activities which they make illegal. I mean, that's your logic, riiiiiiiiiight?

Anyway, were the other 155 words in my post so irrelevant that you couldn't even respond to them?

[WVdemocrat]

Why can't prostitution be like any other 9 to 5 job?

and don't say because there's no "legitimate consent" unless you can prove there's "legitimate consent" with working at Burger King. Which there isn't.

The only reason "prostitution is different" is because of society's hang ups.

"Society's hang ups" are why murder and kidnapping and rape are illegal.

Prostitution reinforces the idea of women as sex objects to be bought and sold. If we were to legalize it, we would be tacitly endorsing this type of patriarchal mindset. And by the way, you still have given no reasons whatsoever why prostitution should be legalized.

[WVdemocrat]

You're argument is textbook circular (ie BAD) logic.

You say consent only matters in prostitution because "prostitution is different" and your reason for it being different is that "consent matters in prostitution but not in any other job" What you are saying boils down to "prostitution is different because it's different" and that's obviously incredibly spurious.

Why should prostitution be legalized?

[WVdemocrat]

We can talk about how selling sex is morally questionable all day, but outlawing something does not make it go away.

So are we just supposed to accept this culture where women are the sex toys of men?!

You're right to be concerned about the rights of sex workers, but banning it because of moral justifications doesn't do anything to address the thriving black market industry that exploits sex workers that exists when it is prohibited. Sure, regulation/legalization is not foolproof and ought to be structured differently than the countries that have implemented it thus far, but it's vastly preferable to the system of turning prostitution into a black market industry where prostitutes themselves are still legally punished when many of them are coerced.

I've stated before that I support decriminalization.

[WVdemocrat]

If prostitution reinforces the idea women are sex objects, how does wage labor not reinforce the idea that workers exist only to make profit for their bosses?

It does. And the only reason workers do exist is to return a profit to their bosses.

[WVdemocrat]

You're argument is textbook circular (ie BAD) logic.

You say consent only matters in prostitution because "prostitution is different" and your reason for it being different is that "consent matters in prostitution but not in any other job" What you are saying boils down to "prostitution is different because it's different" and that's obviously incredibly spurious.

Why should prostitution be legalized?

Same reason marijuana should be legalized. People want to engage in it and it doesn't necessarily hurt anyone. Things much worse are already legal.

HAHAHAHAHA! "Doesn't hurt anyone." Are you kidding me?

The difference between normal laborers and prostitutes is that normal laborers are content doing the work they do.

The difference is that in society, certain things have to get done. The mail's got to be delivered every day. The shelves at grocery stores have got to be stocked. The school buses have got to pick up the kids. If prostitution is a normal job, that implies what prostitutes do is something that has to get done. "Men have got to get sex." According to you, that would fit perfectly up there with all of those. Thinking of prostitution as a normal nine-to-five job endorses the idea that men have got to have sex, and so a few women (prostitutes) have to be "sacrificed" for that - their entire lives, ruined.

[WVdemocrat]

Do you have no concerns whatsoever about the societal impact of this? Or are you just totally cool with women being considered sex objects?

[WVdemocrat]

Do you have no concerns whatsoever about the societal impact of this? Or are you just totally cool with women being considered sex objects?

As I have said several times, it's not good

So is your response concession, then?

We're talking about a broad societal impact here. It doesn't just affect the women who are prostitutes, it affects all women. You would see a significant decline in respect for women (not just women who are prostitutes) if this were to not only be legalized, but normalized.

You're advocating submission to patriarchy, I'm standing up for the fight.

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They are employed as workers to create profitable products or provide profitable services, but those people are much more than workers, they are people who have lives. I've never once said they existed on this earth to work, but rather they are employed for the purpose of work.

[WVdemocrat]

They are employed as workers to create profitable products or provide profitable services, but those people are much more than workers, they are people who have lives. I've never once said they existed on this earth to work, but rather they are employed for the purpose of work.

Just. Like. Prostitutes.

Famous Mortimer is really owning this thread.

What kind of a life do you think they have outside of prostitution? Do you think they go to a nice home a night, and are surrounded by people who love them? Or do you think they have an unsatisfying life, where they never get to enjoy anything?

[WVdemocrat]

What kind of a life do you think they have outside of prostitution? Do you think they go to a nice home a night, and are surrounded by people who love them? Or do you think they have an unsatisfying life, where they never get to enjoy anything?

The same can be said for all kinds of people in "legitimate" fields of work. Especially low-income fields.

If prostitution was brought out of the dark and women involved could have more agency then perhaps things might start to change.

No, things can't change! They would still be sex objects! And to normalize or popularize prostitution would only enable the patriarchal mindset. We don't need girls growing up thinking that's all they're worth.

How can you think flipping burgers and having a man ejaculate inside of you are equally "work"?

[WVdemocrat]

Famous Mortimer, you have such a resigned position on this that it's depressing. Liberals (the ones not waging a war on women) are already ceding this before it ever becomes a mainstream issue. I really can't believe you're taking this stance. How can you just accept this as just a part of our society? The patriarchy, I mean. Are women just supposed to be okay with being treated like this because "men can't control themselves, men need sex"? Seriously?

Before this ever becomes a mainstream issue, are you seriously declaring that society can't change? Feminism has gained traction in recent years, yet you think we should cede this issue to anti-feminists. Unbelievable. This isn't an issue of personal freedom, the right to be a prostitute, this is an issue of personal dignity - the right to not be someone else's sex object. When feminists say they believe women can be breadwinners too, this isn't what they mean.

[WVdemocrat]

No, things can't change! They would still be sex objects! And to normalize or popularize prostitution would only enable the patriarchal mindset. We don't need girls growing up thinking that's all they're worth.

So you admit that your position isn't based on anything logical or policy-based and is just moralistic grandstanding.

How can you call yourself a liberal? Are you not at all concerned with the societal implications of this?

How can you think flipping burgers and having a man ejaculate inside of you are equally "work"?

Because they are.

[WVdemocrat]

Really, you guys have given me no reasons to support the legalization of prostitution.

As liberals, are you not concerned with the message it sends to legalize prostitution? It would be to say that it's okay to treat women as sexual instruments. It would send a message that it's okay to think of women as less than human. You guys have actually taken on conservative talking points to argue with me here. Do you not understand how devastating it would be the feminist movement and to leftism to declare in a single voice that women are just sex objects?

This isn't an issue where the libertarian stance of "just legalize it" should be taken, because this isn't an issue of freedom - the freedom to be a prostitute. This is an installment in the ongoing culture wars. This is about protecting the dignity of women, and protecting the right to be considered equally human.

If you have truly legitimate reasons for supporting this, then quit retreating to conservative talking points, like accusing me of "moralistic grandstanding."

[WVdemocrat]

Really, you guys have given me no reasons to support the legalization of prostitution.

As liberals, are you not concerned with the message it sends to legalize prostitution? It would be to say that it's okay to treat women as sexual instruments. It would send a message that it's okay to think of women as less than human. You guys have actually taken on conservative talking points to argue with me here. Do you not understand how devastating it would be the feminist movement and to leftism to declare in a single voice that women are just sex objects?

This isn't an issue where the libertarian stance of "just legalize it" should be taken, because this isn't an issue of freedom - the freedom to be a prostitute. This is an installment in the ongoing culture wars. This is about protecting the dignity of women, and protecting the right to be considered equally human.

If you have truly legitimate reasons for supporting this, then quit retreating to conservative talking points, like accusing me of "moralistic grandstanding."

Do you truly think this is an area where any woman engaged in sex work has no agency herself? You honestly can't see how sex-negativity can lead to seeing anything to do with sex as inherently degrading when in fact it may not be?

I'm not sex-negative, my friend. But prostitution is literally the sale of women for sex. If you want to disown the feminist movement by supporting the legalization of prostitution, then be up front with it.

Sure, sex work means that some women will engage in sex with men they wouldn't otherwise, for fun, but that doesn't inherently mean that they're being degraded, or that they're being coerced, or that they necessarily mind doing it.

Yes, it does. They are being reduced to sex objects. They are being coerced by circumstance into the sex industry. The plain fact, which you fail to realize is that women at the bottom of the economic ladder are the ones who are prostitutes. If prostitution is a free choice, then why are women with the fewest choices the ones who are doing it?

Do you think it is sexual liberation for women to get f**ked by strangers for money? Are you kidding me?

Sex work is already going on in the black market, and all of the problems you're talking about are already there, except worse. I'm not sure I'm in favor of 100% legalization of prostitution, but you're straight up ignoring people's arguments, presumably because you can't hear them from your perch atop the soap box.

Arguments? Such things don't exist in this thread. I literally have heard no arguments as to why it should be legalized. I support decriminalization, that takes the argument of "they're afraid to go to the police" off the table. I'm still waiting for a reason why it should be legal outside of "just legalize it," which isn't even an argument at all.

[WVdemocrat]

To look at the arguments of the pro-prostitution liberal left is to enter a strange and frankly kind of gross world in which treating sex as an in principle separate sphere of life from employment--surely a novel and incomprehensible distinction to make!--is just one of 'society's hang-ups', consent to sex and consent to employment should be held to directly equivalent standards, and 'sex-negative' is a non-joke concept.

Reality and rationality may seem strange and gross to those living in a moralistic world of delusion and nonsense, yes.

Again somebody has used 'moralistic' as an insult as if caring about right and wrong when making policy is in some way a bad thing. I think this says more than I could.

This. This, so much.

They keep retreating to attacks on feminism. I swear, half the time it seems like I'm debating with conservatives.

[WVdemocrat]

The vast majority of people employed in sex work would not choose to be in the business, yes. Is that what's controversial?

It feels like with the "legaliseit" brigade you can quote evidence all day, only to be met with the same trite ideological arguments treating sex like cannabis or some other tradable commodity.

Sex has a lot of societal connotations attached to it. We can argue all day about if it is good or bad to dress sex up in such a pedastel, but that is an academic discussion. In real life, sex work is different from flipping burgers. I know LOGICBOT3000 will come around to impersonate Spock and say "but crabcake that is firmly illogical". In answer,  that's all very good and great, but tell society that. Sex Work is different from other work, because in the eyes of society it is no matter what poxy hypothetical regulations the government places on it.

Legalisation and regulation seems like such a good idea in theory. I know why people are attached to it - it's elegant, it seems to please all sides and it definitely seems to have helped with ganja. Unfortunately, it has not lived up to its promise. We must change our minds when confronted with evidence, people.

Precisely this. If only I was as good an orator as you.

[WVdemocrat]

Saying women should be just sex objects is indeed a horrible view. Luckily, no one is arguing for that here.

Everything DimpledChad says is in bad faith.

How so?

[WVdemocrat]

Saying women should be just sex objects is indeed a horrible view. Luckily, no one is arguing for that here.

Everything DimpledChad says is in bad faith.

How so?

Well, you do keep asking for 'reasons why sex work should be legalized,' and then ignore them whenever someone (like WillipsBrighton, Cory, or myself) provide them.

How about this: number them. Put them in bold. If you've posted tons of them, make them clear. Because I sure as heck haven't noticed any. All I hear is the libertarian position of "well, we should just legalize it 'cause why not."

By the way, this was directed more at the other pro-legalization posters in this thread, because your argument is one based on a very hard-line ideology (no offense).

[WVdemocrat]

How about this: number the reasons for legalization. Put them in bold. If you've posted tons of them, make them clear. Because I sure as heck haven't noticed any. All I hear is the libertarian position of "well, we should just legalize it 'cause why not."