Sex work

[Cory]

Of course.

[Cory]

I find it incredibly interesting from a Swedish perspective that in the US the left and right position on this is reversed compared to Sweden. Over here the left would decry you as the worst sort of neoliberal who sees women's bodies as trading goods if you supported legalizing this. Heck large part of the left doesn't even want to allow surrogate mothers, because it is rich couples "buying" poor women's wombs.

To be fair though it kinda seems as if the far-left in Sweden has gone over the deep end into full-blown SJW territory in general.

[Cory]

No. SJWs are very much in favor of sex work. When I said the "academic left" I was trying to say SJWs without being inflammatory.

Not from what I've seen. They tend to be very sex-negative.

[Cory]

I support the Swedish system.

Why is paying for sex inherently worse then selling sex? Even if the idea is to make it to where sex workers don't get arrested it still keeps the practice underground where it is easier to exploit sex workers as opposed to legalization and regulation.

[Cory]

They are employed as workers to create profitable products or provide profitable services, but those people are much more than workers, they are people who have lives. I've never once said they existed on this earth to work, but rather they are employed for the purpose of work.

Just. Like. Prostitutes.

Famous Mortimer is really owning this thread.

[Cory]

What kind of a life do you think they have outside of prostitution? Do you think they go to a nice home a night, and are surrounded by people who love them? Or do you think they have an unsatisfying life, where they never get to enjoy anything?

The same can be said for all kinds of people in "legitimate" fields of work. Especially low-income fields.

If prostitution was brought out of the dark and women involved could have more agency then perhaps things might start to change.

[Cory]

No, things can't change! They would still be sex objects! And to normalize or popularize prostitution would only enable the patriarchal mindset. We don't need girls growing up thinking that's all they're worth.

So you admit that your position isn't based on anything logical or policy-based and is just moralistic grandstanding.

How can you think flipping burgers and having a man ejaculate inside of you are equally "work"?

Because they are.

[Cory]

To look at the arguments of the pro-prostitution liberal left is to enter a strange and frankly kind of gross world in which treating sex as an in principle separate sphere of life from employment--surely a novel and incomprehensible distinction to make!--is just one of 'society's hang-ups', consent to sex and consent to employment should be held to directly equivalent standards, and 'sex-negative' is a non-joke concept.

Reality and rationality may seem strange and gross to those living in a moralistic world of delusion and nonsense, yes.

It's amazing. I can't really argue against it, but I don't really feel like I have to because it's the Dr. Pepper of political positions: It just tastes 'off'.

I think that's all you really needed to say.

[Cory]

You know, Famous Mortimer, you're not entirely wrong. If we legalize, ideally we could crack down on violence and STDs involved in it typically, and maybe we could improve the living conditions of those working in this industry. Personally, I have a problem with the message that sends and I find it very troubling that an overwhelming supermajority of women who are prostitutes say they would prefer to exit the industry, so it doesn't seem like our response to that should be to legalize.

Finally it comes out. People made this point a million times over and you just ignored it and claimed to have "heard no reason to legalize it" over and over again. The reason you are against reforms that would actively benefit sex workers is so you can feel self-righteous about yourself.

You constantly claimed that your personal feelings about why prostitution is inherently bad constituted "evidence". You let your personal feelings cancel out logical and common-sense reforms that would save lives, reduce the spread of disease, crack down on sex trafficking, and protect sex workers from abuse. Instead you made arguments that relate more to Victorian conservative attitudes in regards to sex while having the audacity to accuse others of having a "right-wing" opinion on the matter, when clearly they did not.

You're no better then the religious nutcases who are against teaching comprehensive sex ed and birth control for similar reasons couched in different language ("Sex is sacred!" "Think about the message it sends!").

You argued in bad faith, outright ignored valid points against you, and engaged in rank intellectual dishonesty by trying to shame your opponents by likening them to "right-wingers".

Shame on you.

[Cory]

Did I ever claim otherwise? I explicitly said that I don't favor keeping prostitution a crime, I just think it's repugnant to act as if it's completely unremarkable, unexceptionable, and morally neutral. That's all I was ever trying to say.

I will however also say for what has to be at least the third time on this forum, possibly the third time in this thread, that I find the sensibility that one's moral viewpoints should have no place in one's attitudes towards policy, such that 'moralistic' can be uncomplicatedly an insult in this context, deeply, deeply disturbing. I don't like sex being commodified, it's important to me that sex not be commodified, and I don't want to live in an environment in which the commodification of sex is commonly accepted. Of course this is going to make me less than thrilled with the idea of legally condoning the commodification of sex, even if I recognize that it's for the best.

Truth be told I respect the sincerity by which you have this opinion, I suppose if I were utterly morally repulsed by a policy/activity I too would argue against it even in the face of the "technical" arguments of the proponents of said policy.

[Cory]

The substantiation is, not even a social conservative like jmfcst would suggest something like state run brothels.

Except I don't think anyone here advocated for state-run brothels. You're spinning a strawman.