Clinton campaign worried about Sanders, believe he's a real threat
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  Clinton campaign worried about Sanders, believe he's a real threat
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Author Topic: Clinton campaign worried about Sanders, believe he's a real threat  (Read 5498 times)
Cory
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« Reply #25 on: July 07, 2015, 04:49:09 PM »

I hope all these Sanders supporters are happy when a Republican wins and Ruth Ginsberg is found keeled over on the floor of her office and the Republicans get to choose the next Supreme Court Justice so that they and some other little toad on Daily Kos gets to feel good and self-righteous about themselves.

Pathetic and disgusting. But whatever it takes for the True Leftists of Atlas to feel good about themselves, the jackasses.
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Beet
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« Reply #26 on: July 07, 2015, 04:49:33 PM »

Lol

Sanders doesn't appeal to anyone except for upper-middle class/rich white people.

Hmm, I was saying this months ago when everyone was saying a left-challenge to Hillaryism would be an exercise in working class heroism, but now that everyone else is saying this I'm going to say it's not actually true. Yes, my name is Beet. Wink

No, Sanders is a real threat. Sure, his base is upper-middle class/rich white people, but he's going to be a big enough candidate that he can pull in significant numbers of poor people and people of color. I mean, it's not like his message is anathema to the black union worker. He doesn't have to get them all; just enough of them to knock Clinton out. And I think he can.
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WillipsBrighton
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« Reply #27 on: July 07, 2015, 05:20:02 PM »

I hope all these Sanders supporters are happy when a Republican wins and Ruth Ginsberg is found keeled over on the floor of her office and the Republicans get to choose the next Supreme Court Justice so that they and some other little toad on Daily Kos gets to feel good and self-righteous about themselves.

Pathetic and disgusting. But whatever it takes for the True Leftists of Atlas to feel good about themselves, the jackasses.

I've considered this "risk" and I'm willing to take it. What exactly are you worried an extra conservative justice will do? Republicans have had multiple chances to shift the pro-life/pro-choice balance but they never have the balls and I doubt they grow them. With corporate stuff, Hillary appointments would be just as bad the Republicans.
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Icefire9
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« Reply #28 on: July 07, 2015, 06:04:37 PM »


I've considered this "risk" and I'm willing to take it. What exactly are you worried an extra conservative justice will do? Republicans have had multiple chances to shift the pro-life/pro-choice balance but they never have the balls and I doubt they grow them. With corporate stuff, Hillary appointments would be just as bad the Republicans.
Really?

Next session, the supreme court is going to take up more abortion related cases, on whether the law in Texas are constitutional or not.

That could just be the beginning.  Of course, that's really only one issue.  The Obamacare rulings show just how important the supreme court can be, years of fighting for universal healthcare could have all been for nothing.  There was also that case where the Supreme court invalidated parts of the Voting Rights Act.  I'm not going to bother listing every possible case, but there are plenty of important issues that could reach the Supreme Court, environmental regulations, gun control, the death penalty.

By the way, both of the justices appointed by Bill Clinton opposed the citizen's united ruling.

But frankly, the supreme court is only the tip of the iceberg.

The EPA has greatly expanded regulations during the Obama administration, a Republican would roll those back. Obama's immigration executive order could be rolled back, depending on which Republican is in office.

We would likely go back to a neo-conservative foreign policy.  (and no, Clinton is not even close to most Republicans on foreign policy.)

Perhaps the most terrifying (for me), is the possibility that Republicans could eliminate the filibuster, giving them complete free reign over all 3 branches of government.  Can you imagine the havoc they could wreak?  Obamacare would be repealed and banking regulations would be gutted, and that would be the beginning.  It would be every liberal's worst nightmare.

Even if the filibuster isn't repealed Republicans could get 60 seats in the Senate in 2018 if the Democrats don't make gains in 2016 (which we won't if Sanders is the nominee).
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Eraserhead
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« Reply #29 on: July 07, 2015, 06:35:45 PM »

I hope all these Sanders supporters are happy when a Republican wins and Ruth Ginsberg is found keeled over on the floor of her office and the Republicans get to choose the next Supreme Court Justice so that they and some other little toad on Daily Kos gets to feel good and self-righteous about themselves.

Pathetic and disgusting. But whatever it takes for the True Leftists of Atlas to feel good about themselves, the jackasses.

Hey, don't worry. I called this in just for you:

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Ogre Mage
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« Reply #30 on: July 07, 2015, 09:09:24 PM »
« Edited: July 07, 2015, 09:16:12 PM by Ogre Mage »

I hope all these Sanders supporters are happy when a Republican wins and Ruth Ginsberg is found keeled over on the floor of her office and the Republicans get to choose the next Supreme Court Justice so that they and some other little toad on Daily Kos gets to feel good and self-righteous about themselves.

Pathetic and disgusting. But whatever it takes for the True Leftists of Atlas to feel good about themselves, the jackasses.


I've considered this "risk" and I'm willing to take it. What exactly are you worried an extra conservative justice will do? Republicans have had multiple chances to shift the pro-life/pro-choice balance but they never have the balls and I doubt they grow them. With corporate stuff, Hillary appointments would be just as bad the Republicans.
 

With one more vote on the SCOTUS we could reverse Citizens United.  And the hollowing out of the VRA could be stopped and even reversed.  We could reverse the Hobby Lobby decision that said corporations have First Amendment rights and can refuse to provide contraceptive coverage.  All of those decisions were 5-4 in favor of the SCOTUS conservative wing.

The abortion cases are important too but there is more to it than that.

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Cory
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« Reply #31 on: July 08, 2015, 12:14:49 AM »

Hey, don't worry. I called this in just for you:



I hope you think that's funny if the ACA is repealed and a human being in America who would've benefited from the subsidies doesn't have health insurance and goes bankrupt from having to go to the emergency room.

But that's probably fine by you if you get to make your snobby little "point" by being the "real deal" at the expense of the American people.
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Bull Moose Base
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« Reply #32 on: July 08, 2015, 01:03:07 AM »

Hey, don't worry. I called this in just for you:



I hope you think that's funny if the ACA is repealed and a human being in America who would've benefited from the subsidies doesn't have health insurance and goes bankrupt from having to go to the emergency room.

But that's probably fine by you if you get to make your snobby little "point" by being the "real deal" at the expense of the American people.

I'm old enough to remember Hillary arguing Obama would lose the election if nominated.
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Leinad
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« Reply #33 on: July 08, 2015, 01:30:20 AM »

Why is a strong Sanders campaign equivalent to a Republican winning? Clinton can still get the nomination with a narrow primary win; in fact, as people have mentioned, it would probably be better for her if it's more competitive.

Would Hillary do a better job than Bernie in the general election? Maybe, but I'm sure that a strong Sanders campaign--strong enough to take the nomination away from the "inevitable" Hillary--would turn out at least the base better than one from the baggage-heavy Clinton.
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Cory
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« Reply #34 on: July 08, 2015, 01:35:52 PM »

I'm old enough to remember Hillary arguing Obama would lose the election if nominated.

So am I, but you can't be serious in comparing the two.
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Eraserhead
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« Reply #35 on: July 08, 2015, 04:20:07 PM »

Hey, don't worry. I called this in just for you:



I hope you think that's funny if the ACA is repealed and a human being in America who would've benefited from the subsidies doesn't have health insurance and goes bankrupt from having to go to the emergency room.

But that's probably fine by you if you get to make your snobby little "point" by being the "real deal" at the expense of the American people.

Okay, I'll be sure to cast my vote based on a bunch of ridiculous "what if" scenarios rather than vote for the person who actually holds more positions I agree with.
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WillipsBrighton
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« Reply #36 on: July 08, 2015, 04:41:43 PM »

ACA is a garbage bill. Not going to miss a chance to move the national political debate to the left for the sake of saving it.
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Beet
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« Reply #37 on: July 08, 2015, 04:45:57 PM »

So "the debate" is more important than 17 million people having health insurance?
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Famous Mortimer
WillipsBrighton
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« Reply #38 on: July 08, 2015, 04:59:20 PM »

Long term, the debate will result in real universal health care.

Short term, I don't even think the ACA will get repealed. It's a give away to the GOPs corporate donors and no one is ever going to do away with the filibuster because they realize they themselves will eventually in the minority.
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Icefire9
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« Reply #39 on: July 08, 2015, 05:02:59 PM »

ACA is a garbage bill. Not going to miss a chance to move the national political debate to the left for the sake of saving it.
So do you think Republicans would be well served by 'moving the debate to the right' and nominating Ted Cruz? 

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Famous Mortimer
WillipsBrighton
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« Reply #40 on: July 08, 2015, 05:07:28 PM »

ACA is a garbage bill. Not going to miss a chance to move the national political debate to the left for the sake of saving it.
So do you think Republicans would be well served by 'moving the debate to the right' and nominating Ted Cruz? 



No. Of course not. Are you trying to paint me as being a hypocrite because I'm a left-winger and I want left-wing stuff to happen and not right-wing stuff? So basically anyone with views is a hypocrite? The only non-hypocrites are Moderate Heroes?
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WVdemocrat
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« Reply #41 on: July 08, 2015, 05:11:51 PM »

Jesus Christ, could all of the Hillary supporters for one second stop being so damn self-righteous and sanctimonious. If they like Bernie's message better, who are you to tell them they can't vote for him?

It's fine to support Bernie. They shouldn't not vote for him based on convoluted and contrived hypotheticals. Us here on Atlas know better than anyone else that elections are complex organisms (though we sometimes forget they are, this forum has swooned for a lot of paper tigers), so you can't definitively arbitrate, months out from Election Day, that Bernie can't win. Who knows? Right now, you say he's an old unelectable socialist, when 16 months, 4 debates, hundreds of ads, and thousands of campaign stops later, he might win the election.

What I'm saying is that the Hillary supporters don't need to vilify and demonize the Bernie supporters just because they happen to like his message more. Keep in mind, I'm not a Bernie supporter, I'm in the bag for O'Malley, so it's not like this is some biased rant.
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Icefire9
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« Reply #42 on: July 08, 2015, 05:12:56 PM »

ACA is a garbage bill. Not going to miss a chance to move the national political debate to the left for the sake of saving it.
So do you think Republicans would be well served by 'moving the debate to the right' and nominating Ted Cruz? 




No. Of course not. Are you trying to paint me as being a hypocrite because I'm a left-winger and I want left-wing stuff to happen and not right-wing stuff? So basically anyone with views is a hypocrite? The only non-hypocrites are Moderate Heroes?
You misunderstood me.

I didn't ask if you wanted them to nominate Cruz.  I asked if you thought nominating Cruz would be a good strategy for Republicans.  Its possible to say 'conservatives should do this if they want to do well', and then say 'but I don't want them to do that'.
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WillipsBrighton
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« Reply #43 on: July 08, 2015, 05:21:21 PM »

ACA is a garbage bill. Not going to miss a chance to move the national political debate to the left for the sake of saving it.
So do you think Republicans would be well served by 'moving the debate to the right' and nominating Ted Cruz? 




No. Of course not. Are you trying to paint me as being a hypocrite because I'm a left-winger and I want left-wing stuff to happen and not right-wing stuff? So basically anyone with views is a hypocrite? The only non-hypocrites are Moderate Heroes?
You misunderstood me.

I didn't ask if you wanted them to nominate Cruz.  I asked if you thought nominating Cruz would be a good strategy for Republicans.  Its possible to say 'conservatives should do this if they want to do well', and then say 'but I don't want them to do that'.

No because the political debate in the United States is already very much to the right. If Sanders succeeded in moving it to the left, we would probably still be one of the more conservative countries in the industrialized world. There's not much room for the Republicans to go right-ward but there's plenty for the Dems to go left-ward.
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Icefire9
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« Reply #44 on: July 08, 2015, 05:42:39 PM »

ACA is a garbage bill. Not going to miss a chance to move the national political debate to the left for the sake of saving it.
So do you think Republicans would be well served by 'moving the debate to the right' and nominating Ted Cruz? 




No. Of course not. Are you trying to paint me as being a hypocrite because I'm a left-winger and I want left-wing stuff to happen and not right-wing stuff? So basically anyone with views is a hypocrite? The only non-hypocrites are Moderate Heroes?
You misunderstood me.

I didn't ask if you wanted them to nominate Cruz.  I asked if you thought nominating Cruz would be a good strategy for Republicans.  Its possible to say 'conservatives should do this if they want to do well', and then say 'but I don't want them to do that'.

No because the political debate in the United States is already very much to the right. If Sanders succeeded in moving it to the left, we would probably still be one of the more conservative countries in the industrialized world. There's not much room for the Republicans to go right-ward but there's plenty for the Dems to go left-ward.
Eh, imo there's plenty of room to move rightward.  Historically, industrialized nations have drifted far further right than the U.S. is now (the big example is Nazi Germany.)  When you get further right than the Tea Party types, you start getting into the white supremacist types and then full blown neo-nazis.  These far right ideologies are obviously horrible, but they exist on the left-right spectrum and could theoretically be made more mainstream (at least within the Republican party) by a Cruz candidacy.

 
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WillipsBrighton
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« Reply #45 on: July 08, 2015, 05:54:17 PM »

ACA is a garbage bill. Not going to miss a chance to move the national political debate to the left for the sake of saving it.
So do you think Republicans would be well served by 'moving the debate to the right' and nominating Ted Cruz? 




No. Of course not. Are you trying to paint me as being a hypocrite because I'm a left-winger and I want left-wing stuff to happen and not right-wing stuff? So basically anyone with views is a hypocrite? The only non-hypocrites are Moderate Heroes?
You misunderstood me.

I didn't ask if you wanted them to nominate Cruz.  I asked if you thought nominating Cruz would be a good strategy for Republicans.  Its possible to say 'conservatives should do this if they want to do well', and then say 'but I don't want them to do that'.

No because the political debate in the United States is already very much to the right. If Sanders succeeded in moving it to the left, we would probably still be one of the more conservative countries in the industrialized world. There's not much room for the Republicans to go right-ward but there's plenty for the Dems to go left-ward.
Eh, imo there's plenty of room to move rightward.  Historically, industrialized nations have drifted far further right than the U.S. is now (the big example is Nazi Germany.)  When you get further right than the Tea Party types, you start getting into the white supremacist types and then full blown neo-nazis.  These far right ideologies are obviously horrible, but they exist on the left-right spectrum and could theoretically be made more mainstream (at least within the Republican party) by a Cruz candidacy.

 

Ignoring the fact that we're going way off topic for this thread, no, there is no chance Nazism could become mainstream in America. No, Ted Cruz, as horrible as he is, is not a Nazi.

WTF
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Icefire9
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« Reply #46 on: July 08, 2015, 05:57:32 PM »

ACA is a garbage bill. Not going to miss a chance to move the national political debate to the left for the sake of saving it.
So do you think Republicans would be well served by 'moving the debate to the right' and nominating Ted Cruz? 




No. Of course not. Are you trying to paint me as being a hypocrite because I'm a left-winger and I want left-wing stuff to happen and not right-wing stuff? So basically anyone with views is a hypocrite? The only non-hypocrites are Moderate Heroes?
You misunderstood me.

I didn't ask if you wanted them to nominate Cruz.  I asked if you thought nominating Cruz would be a good strategy for Republicans.  Its possible to say 'conservatives should do this if they want to do well', and then say 'but I don't want them to do that'.

No because the political debate in the United States is already very much to the right. If Sanders succeeded in moving it to the left, we would probably still be one of the more conservative countries in the industrialized world. There's not much room for the Republicans to go right-ward but there's plenty for the Dems to go left-ward.
Eh, imo there's plenty of room to move rightward.  Historically, industrialized nations have drifted far further right than the U.S. is now (the big example is Nazi Germany.)  When you get further right than the Tea Party types, you start getting into the white supremacist types and then full blown neo-nazis.  These far right ideologies are obviously horrible, but they exist on the left-right spectrum and could theoretically be made more mainstream (at least within the Republican party) by a Cruz candidacy.

 

Ignoring the fact that we're going way off topic for this thread, no, there is no chance Nazism could become mainstream in America. No, Ted Cruz, as horrible as he is, is not a Nazi.

WTF
I never said that Ted Cruz was a nazi, I was just giving examples of right wing ideologies further right than is mainstream in the U.S.
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Fuzzy Stands With His Friend, Chairman Sanchez
Fuzzy Bear
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« Reply #47 on: July 08, 2015, 05:59:13 PM »

I hope all these Sanders supporters are happy when a Republican wins and Ruth Ginsberg is found keeled over on the floor of her office and the Republicans get to choose the next Supreme Court Justice so that they and some other little toad on Daily Kos gets to feel good and self-righteous about themselves.

Pathetic and disgusting. But whatever it takes for the True Leftists of Atlas to feel good about themselves, the jackasses.

I'm hardly a leftist, but I find Sanders refreshing, in the way I find Trump refreshing.  They're guys unafraid to say what they really think, and I do think that Sanders is entirely right on the issue of the 1% being THE issue.  And I think that they are the only two candidates that won't try to pull the wool over my eyes with yet another "free (barf) trade" pact that sells out what's left of America's middle class.

In the world of realpolitik, however, the "Socialist" label will do Bernie in, and Democrats will do anything to ensure that he doesn't get their nomination.
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WillipsBrighton
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« Reply #48 on: July 08, 2015, 05:59:58 PM »

They're further right but again, they have no chance of ever catching on.

Nazism isn't realistic and could never be.

Social democracy isn't realistic right now but it could be, as it is in Europe and Canada.
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Cory
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« Reply #49 on: July 08, 2015, 07:21:22 PM »

So "the debate" is more important than 17 million people having health insurance?

Yes, that's how these people really think. They are wildly unrealistic and living an a bubble of their own.

Voting for Bernie Sanders is fine and well, but actually nominating him would be an unmitigated disaster and it's foolish to deny it. It's hardly a "convoluted and contrived hypothetical".
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