looks like Tsipras has folded

[Marokai Backbeat]

But that's not what they want. They want to make an example of Greece, in order to scare bigger countries like Spain and Italy into complying to their absurd, failed economic and monetary policies. They are literally trying to convince all Europeans that, as Ol' Maggie said, there is no alternative.

Yep. This has been monstrous.

[ingemann]

The only way Greece pays off most of its debt is that we forgive a share of it. That's what I don't get. Either you get some of your money back, or you get absolutely nothing because Greece defaults. So if Germany really wanted its money back, they should do the sensible thing and negotiate a restructuring.

But that's not what they want. They want to make an example of Greece, in order to scare bigger countries like Spain and Italy into complying to their absurd, failed economic and monetary policies. They are literally trying to convince all Europeans that, as Ol' Maggie said, there is no alternative.

Greece got a very large write off in 2013. Greece pay  2,6 %of their GDP in interests, significant lower Spain (3+%), Ireland (4%+), Italy (4,6+) or Portugal (around 5%). Even if we cut the Greek debt in half, we will be in these negotiation again next year, when they ask for a new write off, and they haven't kept any of their promises again.

The money are lost no matter what, so why send moregood money are bad ones?

[ObserverIE]

Today's events give great credence to the theory that the last few weeks have been nothing more than shadowpuppetry trying to put the blame for grexit on one party or another.

There certainly seem to be very few adults in the room.

[Antonio the Sixth]

The only way Greece pays off most of its debt is that we forgive a share of it. That's what I don't get. Either you get some of your money back, or you get absolutely nothing because Greece defaults. So if Germany really wanted its money back, they should do the sensible thing and negotiate a restructuring.

But that's not what they want. They want to make an example of Greece, in order to scare bigger countries like Spain and Italy into complying to their absurd, failed economic and monetary policies. They are literally trying to convince all Europeans that, as Ol' Maggie said, there is no alternative.

Greece got a very large write off in 2013. Greece pay  2,6 %of their GDP in interests, significant lower Spain (3+%), Ireland (4%+), Italy (4,6+) or Portugal (around 5%). Even if we cut the Greek debt in half, we will be in these negotiation again next year, when they ask for a new write off, and they haven't kept any of their promises again.

The money are lost no matter what, so why send more money are bad ones?

Greece has been unable to pay off its debt because the recessive austerity policies Germany&co shoved down its throat have killed any shed of economic growth. Without growth, the Greek government will always be forced to spend more than what it raises, because the former will keep growing and the latter will keep shrinking. It's well-known and universally accepted among economists who are not complete tools that trying to balance a budget during a recession is a suicidal policy. Ironically, Greece's debt would probably be smaller today if it had been allowed to keep running deficits until growth comes back. The logical course of action would have been to wait for the recession to end, and then strive to balance the budget.

[ingemann]

Greece have unable to pay its debts, because it have a budget deficit, not because of austerity. Your policy suggestion this entire time have been that Greece should increase this deficit. There's nothing in your suggestion which lead to Greece being able to pay off it debt, only increasing it.

In the old day Greece could have grown out of it with population growth in which case new loans wouldn't be the worst idea, but Greece have a shrinking workforce, thanks to their low birth rate, low pension age and demographic transition.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Actually, Greece currently has a primary surplus.

[ingemann]

Actually, Greece currently has a primary surplus.

Not really, they was on the way to a primary surplus, until the the last Greek government tried to bribe the population to reelect them and the common Greeks stopped paying tax before last election.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2015/02/16/greece-still-has-a-vast-problem-it-doesnt-have-a-primary-budget-surplus/

But it's the Slovaks who's a bunch of pricks because, they don't want to pay to pay to the Greeks, so they don't need to pay tax.

Also Greece barely pay more in interest than France or Germany as part of GDP and they still aren't able to produce a real surplus.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Unless I'm misreading, this more recent source says the opposite.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

Today's events give great credence to the theory that the last few weeks have been nothing more than shadowpuppetry trying to put the blame for grexit on one party or another.

On Germany's part, certainly. It's crystal-clear they don't give two f**ks about finding a mutually acceptable agreement.

Not necessarily Germany. Finland has just come out and said they are against a bailout and want Grexit. The Finns Party threatened to bring down the government otherwise.

Anyway, it looks like the Anti-Greece camp might get their way after all. Perhaps Tsipras is a successful master of 5D chess after all.

I figured he might try to give the most away in a deal that would be rejected, but I didn't think the rest of the EU would be insane enough to reject this total giveaway to the bankers.

[Angel of Death]

It's still possible that this U-turn came too late and that they'll drop the hammer anyway.

[Mehmentum]

If the EU rejects this offer, I will lose all respect I have for the institution.  It would be morally reprehensible to reject this offer at this point.

[ag]

and ag, and all the other anti-Greek posters here

I would object to being an anti-Greek poster here or anywhere.

1. I, most definitely, do not blame Greeks for the disaster that is happening now.

2. I do believe European partners should do their utmost to help mitigate the economic and social disaster that the Greeks are being plunged in.

3. I do believe that Greek debt is unsustainable and, in fact, will not be (and should not be) paid. And, BTW, I have no particular moral belief about "sanctity" of debts.

4. I even believe Greece may be better off outside of the euro for the moment - especially, if other European countries make an effort to deal with the transition (see point 2 - the transition, of course, is something I am very scared about - the human cost of it may be extremely large).

5. And, though not an admirer of the current Greek government, I do not, obviously, blame it for the entire situation: it would be ridiculous to blame the guys who only got in 6 months ago.

6. In fact, I believe that the Greek voters were absolutely correct in kicking out the ND and PASOK bastards: democracy is all about punishing the governments that preside over disasters.

7. I am afraid that much worse governments will come to power if SYRIZA fails (as it, I am afraid, it will).

I guess, my "anti-Greekness" here is in that

1. I refuse to blame the Germans or the bankers (they are no more to blame than the Greeks).

2. I support the structural reforms that are being proposed.

3. I believe that, all said and done, Greece has benefited enormously from its membership in european institutions (though, may be, not the euro).

4. I believe that the current disaster is, in fact, inbuilt into the structure of the euro zone - and everybody was warned about this at the time of joining (wasn't that the point of the "stability and growth pact"?)

5. I do not believe in national pride and dignity as desirable guiding objectives of any government, especially in a situation as tough as this one.

6. I am not particularly impressed by the current government's handling of the situation (at this point, probably, it is hard to find somebody who is).

7. I find that last thing unsurprising: in fact, it is precisely the expectation that this government would be fundamentally incompetent that made me argue long ago that either the Papandreu or the Samaras government should have themselves negotiated Grexit, without waiting for others do it.

I do not know if any of this makes me anti-Greek, but I would definitely like to set my position out straight here.

[Silent Hunter]

Greece have unable to pay its debts, because it have a budget deficit, not because of austerity.

We have a budget deficit and are still able to pay our debts ,or rather the necessary payments on them. So that's not really the case.

I definitely agree, however, Greece is not going to be able to pay its ones and some write-off maybe needed.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

http://satwcomic.com/a-zorba-slowing-down

[Antonio the Sixth]

http://satwcomic.com/a-zorba-slowing-down

I love SATW, but the author is clearly Danish, and it shows in strips like this.

[© tweed]

2. I support the structural reforms that are being proposed.

so. basically, you support the ability of creditors to force unpopular policy on a population because that population is "insolvent".

--

x-post AAD.

"today is about establishing conditions to *start* negotiations, not closing a deal."

tomorrow Germany offer a "tough" 3 year "aid"/bloodletting package to Greece..

..they have other EU leaders pleading with them not to be psychotic.  Italy's PM openly came out against Merkel: "Humiliating a European partner after Greece has given up on just about everything is unthinkable."

[ag]

2. I support the structural reforms that are being proposed.

so. basically, you support the ability of creditors to force unpopular policy on a population because that population is "insolvent".

Most certainly, I do. Especially in this case.

Of course, Greeks always have the option of doing it alone. Of course, the outcome would be even less popular. But, in every Aristotelian sense, they are given a choice.

[© tweed]

the new details are, of course, that Greece is being offered the following choice:

Tsipras was told that Greece will either become an effective “ward” of the eurozone, by agreeing to immediately implement swift reforms this week.

Or, it leaves the euro area and watches its banks collapse.

Tsipras personally, of course, has a third option: he can choose not to make the choice.

would Parliament Speaker Zoi Konstantopoulou (who abstained on the Friday/Saturday vote be willing to) be willing to lead Greece and a governing Syriza into Grexit as PM?

[Simfan34]

Jatgernube: Greek ministers think Eurozone proposal is "very bad"

You must be logged in to read this quote.

[© tweed]

this is insane.  they can't actually think that they can maintain sovereignty without mass repressions at least some of the time if this goes through.  all of this over ~320 billion Euros (theoretically anyway) -- a fcking keystroke for the Fed or ECB.

[ag]

this is insane.  they can't actually think that they can maintain sovereignty without mass repressions at least some of the time if this goes through.  all of this over ~320 billion Euros (theoretically anyway) -- a fcking keystroke for the Fed or ECB.

What repressions? The Europeans are not asking for any restrictions on political activity, or media, or individual rights. They are merely giving a choice of taking the money on some conditions, or not taking the money and having to implement even rougher conditions.

[© tweed]

this is insane.  they can't actually think that they can maintain sovereignty without mass repressions at least some of the time if this goes through.  all of this over ~320 billion Euros (theoretically anyway) -- a fcking keystroke for the Fed or ECB.

What repressions? The Europeans are not asking for any restrictions on political activity, or media, or individual rights. They are merely giving a choice of taking the money on some conditions, or not taking the money and having to implement even rougher conditions.

the very implementation of these 'conditions' is a death blow to Greek national sovereignty (within that we find "political activity" and "individual rights"), and the way these negotiations have been carried out is best described as ritual humiliation -- or "fiscal waterboarding", prefers the Guardian.

[ag]

this is insane.  they can't actually think that they can maintain sovereignty without mass repressions at least some of the time if this goes through.  all of this over ~320 billion Euros (theoretically anyway) -- a fcking keystroke for the Fed or ECB.

What repressions? The Europeans are not asking for any restrictions on political activity, or media, or individual rights. They are merely giving a choice of taking the money on some conditions, or not taking the money and having to implement even rougher conditions.

the very implementation of these 'conditions' is a death blow to Greek national sovereignty (within that we find "political activity" and "individual rights"), and the way these negotiations have been carried out is best described as ritual humiliation -- or "fiscal waterboarding", prefers the Guardian.

Well, the alternative to humiliation is trust. And that is lacking at this point.

[© tweed]

Tsipras supposedly has 4 demands:

@tom_nuttall
Tsipras seeking 4 changes to EG note:

1 No IMF involvement
2 Stronger statement on debt
3 Signal to ECB to maintain ELA
4 Scrap 50bn idea

--

dawn has hit the Eurogroup, and Chinese markets opened for Monday. Euro down only a half-cent so far today so the sense of panic is limited.

[traininthedistance]

2. I support the structural reforms that are being proposed.

so. basically, you support the ability of creditors to force unpopular policy on a population because that population is "insolvent".

Most certainly, I do. Especially in this case.

Of course, Greeks always have the option of doing it alone. Of course, the outcome would be even less popular. But, in every Aristotelian sense, they are given a choice.

Fun fact: one of these conditions is that Greece change its laws so that shops stay open on Sunday.  But, of course, Germany has some of the strictest rules against opening on Sunday on the continent!  Medicine for thee, but not for me.

(And, of course, there is the little question of whether that medicine is effective or toxic. Some things I imagine I would support if implemented in a democratic, non-cocercive manner– but others are almost certain to do more harm than good, and this masquerade has been in practice anything but "democratic and non-coercive".)