looks like Tsipras has folded

[ag]

2. I support the structural reforms that are being proposed.

so. basically, you support the ability of creditors to force unpopular policy on a population because that population is "insolvent".

Most certainly, I do. Especially in this case.

Of course, Greeks always have the option of doing it alone. Of course, the outcome would be even less popular. But, in every Aristotelian sense, they are given a choice.

Fun fact: one of these conditions is that Greece change its laws so that shops stay open on Sunday.  But, of course, Germany has some of the strictest rules against opening on Sunday on the continent!  Medicine for thee, but not for me.

I would, most definitely, support foreigners forcing the German government to let the stores open on Sunday - and on Christmas Day, for that matter, as well. Unfortunately, there are no creditors who could do this. And it is not worth fighting WWIII over. Though, it is, most definitely, a more deserving cause than whatever started WWI.

[traininthedistance]

2. I support the structural reforms that are being proposed.

so. basically, you support the ability of creditors to force unpopular policy on a population because that population is "insolvent".

Most certainly, I do. Especially in this case.

Of course, Greeks always have the option of doing it alone. Of course, the outcome would be even less popular. But, in every Aristotelian sense, they are given a choice.

Fun fact: one of these conditions is that Greece change its laws so that shops stay open on Sunday.  But, of course, Germany has some of the strictest rules against opening on Sunday on the continent!  Medicine for thee, but not for me.

I would, most definitely, support foreigners forcing the German government to let the stores open on Sunday - and on Christmas Day, for that matter, as well. Unfortunately, there are no creditors who could do this. And it is not worth fighting WWIII over. Though, it is, most definitely, a more deserving cause than whatever started WWI.

The funny thing is that yes, in a vacuum would be one of their more sensible proposals.  Stores should be open on Sunday!  But the fact that it's coming up as a non-negotiable demand is enough of a show of hypocrisy to make one conclude that perhaps it's not just the Greeks who are untrustworthy here.

Yes, it's not worth WWIII over.  It's also not worth plunging the Greeks into semi-permanent depression over.

[ag]

2. I support the structural reforms that are being proposed.

so. basically, you support the ability of creditors to force unpopular policy on a population because that population is "insolvent".

Most certainly, I do. Especially in this case.

Of course, Greeks always have the option of doing it alone. Of course, the outcome would be even less popular. But, in every Aristotelian sense, they are given a choice.

Fun fact: one of these conditions is that Greece change its laws so that shops stay open on Sunday.  But, of course, Germany has some of the strictest rules against opening on Sunday on the continent!  Medicine for thee, but not for me.

I would, most definitely, support foreigners forcing the German government to let the stores open on Sunday - and on Christmas Day, for that matter, as well. Unfortunately, there are no creditors who could do this. And it is not worth fighting WWIII over. Though, it is, most definitely, a more deserving cause than whatever started WWI.

The funny thing is that yes, in a vacuum would be one of their more sensible proposals.  Stores should be open on Sunday!  But the fact that it's coming up as a non-negotiable demand is enough of a show of hypocrisy to make one conclude that perhaps it's not just the Greeks who are untrustworthy here.

The difference is that the Germans have demonstrated that they can survive and prosper, despite closing their stores on Sundays. The Greeks, in contrast, have not. If and when the Greeks find a way to pay for the luxury of keeping the stores closed, their parliament will have a chance to decide to switch it back.

You know, Athens has parts of the Parthenon and London has the rest. Arguably, there is value involved in having it all together. Given the circumstances, it is pretty clear that it should be Greeks selling the Parthenon to the Brits, and not the other way around. I am pretty sure Greeks could get a decent price for those stones. But, for whatever reasons, they do not offer to sell it - and I find that stupid.

[traininthedistance]

You know, Athens has parts of the Parthenon and London has the rest. Arguably, there is value involved in having it all together. Given the circumstances, it is pretty clear that it should be Greeks selling the Parthenon to the Brits, and not the other way around. I am pretty sure Greeks could get a decent price for those stones. But, for whatever reasons, they do not offer to sell it - and I find that stupid.

This is the sort of thing that should actually go in your "How do economists think differently" thread.  Like, I know a little bit about the discipline and I genuinely respect many of the insights it has to bring to the table of human experience... but at the end of the day there are some things you cannot put a price on, and shouldn't even try.  I guess that makes me not an economist.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

Looks like Tsipras capitulated to all demands.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/eurozone-leaders-reach-unanimous-agreement-on-greece-says-eus-tusk-1436771076

[Gustaf]

There is a lot of posturing on both sides that I strongly disagree with.

1. Jfern keep harping on about banks. Little of Greek debt is to any banks so they have no stake in this anymore. This is because we bailed them out and put the debt on tax payers. Which I think was wrong, in agreement with what traindistance posted. However, that means that the ship has sailed on punishing irresponsible creditors. The people who would now be punished by forgiving Greek debt made the mistake of being nice enough to the Greeks to give them a haircut on the debt and move in to guarantee it. So that morality tale has no point now.

2. The Greek people will suffer and that suffering should not be treated in a flippant manner. However, as Ag and others have pointed out, they will suffer under any outcome that isn't just giving them lots of money for free. And that one was never gonna happen.

3. Austerity can be debated back and forth forever but it isn't as clearly useless as some would like to think (see the Baltics for instance).

4. Greece isn't really a classic case of the austerity debate. For starters, the classic Keynesian idea is that a government in a recession should borrow money to prop up demand. Greece can't borrow money because no one will lend them any because they fcked up their finances. Much of the underlying problem is really, really poor political and economic institutions controlled by interest groups who have managed to block any reform. This reform is not some neo-liberal evil. Some of it may well be from the perspective of the far-left but most of it is just plain economic sense. The fact that Greece has not implemented any reforms is why creditors want to impose on their sovereignty. There is no trust left. And the fact that corrupt Greek institutions refuse reform is why the austerity has ended up hurting the poor and powerless so much. That outcome isn't purely the fault of creditors.

5. So, yes, the EU is being undemocratic (omg shocker), the euro is a disaster and Greece should leave. But that doesn't change any of the above. This outcome is probably the worst one because it will continue this meaningless austerity and continue to prop up the euro. Let's revisit the situation in a year or something.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

Sunday closing is a luxury now? Good grief.

[ag]

Sunday closing is a luxury now? Good grief.

Well, it is a bit like fox hunt, isn't it? Something both abominable  and wastefulthat rich people nevertheless enjoy, if they can afford it.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

Sunday closing is a luxury now? Good grief.

Well, it is a bit like fox hunt, isn't it? Something both abominable  and wastefulthat rich people nevertheless enjoy, if they can afford it.

Oh f-ck off... As a genetic part-ulsterman, the idea that Sunday closing is 'for rich people' is one of the strangest and most hilarious ideas I've ever heard. Clearly in Mexico or Russia they lack the tradition of Sabbatarianism so prevalent in parts of the British Isles (slowly diminishing as we speak).

But hey it's leisure, and we all know that only the rich can relax.

[ag]

Sunday closing is a luxury now? Good grief.

Well, it is a bit like fox hunt, isn't it? Something both abominable  and wastefulthat rich people nevertheless enjoy, if they can afford it.

Oh f-ck off... As a genetic part-ulsterman, the idea that Sunday closing is 'for rich people' is one of the strangest and most hilarious ideas I've ever heard. Clearly in Mexico or Russia they lack the tradition of Sabbatarianism so prevalent in parts of the British Isles (slowly diminishing as we speak).

But hey it's leisure, and we all know that only the rich can relax.

Well, it is designed so that the rich people can hold the poor down, isn't it?

And, hey, my ancestors were the ones who invented this idiotic tradition. Next you know, you will be advocating having the elevators run without pressing the button on the Sabbath

[Tetro Kornbluth]

Sunday closing is a luxury now? Good grief.

Well, it is a bit like fox hunt, isn't it? Something both abominable  and wastefulthat rich people nevertheless enjoy, if they can afford it.

Oh f-ck off... As a genetic part-ulsterman, the idea that Sunday closing is 'for rich people' is one of the strangest and most hilarious ideas I've ever heard. Clearly in Mexico or Russia they lack the tradition of Sabbatarianism so prevalent in parts of the British Isles (slowly diminishing as we speak).

But hey it's leisure, and we all know that only the rich can relax.

Well, it is designed so that the rich people can hold the poor down, isn't it?

Citation Needed.

Because that's certainly not who supports it here [i.e. Socially conservative left-wingers and ultra-protestants]. To compare it to fox hunting is just... tone deaf at best.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Hardly even remotely the same. Closing for work = not making an effort in anything now?

[ag]

To compare it to fox hunting is just... tone deaf at best.

Never assume the best It was deliberate, and, judging by your reaction, the tone was exactly the one intended

[Tetro Kornbluth]

To compare it to fox hunting is just... tone deaf at best.

Never assume the best It was deliberate, and, judging by your reaction, the tone was exactly the one intended

Ok. Fine.

But you need to explain how Sunday closing is a method by which "the rich can hold the poor down"... or am I assuming the best wrt to your words again?

[Antonio the Sixth]

Why don't people work literally 24 hours a day 7 days a week anyway? Isn't having a life sort of a luxury for rich people anyway? Poor people only exist to work.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

One of my sources of confusion is why they're selling off the grid. I mean we can argue all day about whether public or private companies run electricity better, but surely a privatisation cash bonanza won't change the structural deficit at all

In all fairness, although I think people should be allowed a day off; I'm not sure why we have to force them to choose the Sunday.

[ag]

To compare it to fox hunting is just... tone deaf at best.

Never assume the best It was deliberate, and, judging by your reaction, the tone was exactly the one intended

Ok. Fine.

But you need to explain how Sunday closing is a method by which "the rich can hold the poor down"... or am I assuming the best wrt to your words again?

Rich people have servants they can send to do the shopping on work days. The poor do not. Plus, reducing the number of workplaces, of course. This is one of the most efficient ways of ensuring the poor stay poor.

[ag]

One of my sources of confusion is why they're selling off the grid. I mean we can argue all day about whether public or private companies run electricity better, but surely a privatisation cash bonanza won't change the structural deficit at all

In all fairness, although I think people should be allowed a day off; I'm not sure why we have to force them to choose the Sunday.

As it is, labor legislation everywhere specifies that people should have a day off (as well as the length of the workweek, etc.). Nobody is forcing the Greeks to abandon that.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

If you have a working class job (however defined) chances are you don't work Saturdays - which is why Saturday was traditionally the biggest day of the week for shopping in Britain - and if you do work Saturdays (i.e. if you're in retail) then you'll have a weekday off. Historically it was also the case the grocers sold a lot of their wares via delivery vans and in recent decades supermarkets are obviously open longer than normal work hours on weekdays...

[ag]

Why don't people work literally 24 hours a day 7 days a week anyway? Isn't having a life sort of a luxury for rich people anyway? Poor people only exist to work.

The last time I looked, there was still unemployment.

Anyway, I guess you subscribe to the notion that "corporations are people". Because nobody is trying to force any physical human being to work 24/7.

[ag]

If you have a working class job (however defined) chances are you don't work Saturdays - which is why Saturday was traditionally the biggest day of the week for shopping in Britain - and if you do work Saturdays (i.e. if you're in retail) then you'll have a weekday off. Historically it was also the case the grocers sold a lot of their wares via delivery vans and in recent decades supermarkets are obviously open longer than normal work hours on weekdays...

You know, I did live for a year in Spain. It was horrible, not being able to buy necessities. Mercifully, there are always some immigrant (Chinese, or Ukrainian, or whatever) stores open illegally, selling you the toilet paper at double the price of a supermarket. And, yep, there were pretty working class people shopping there - having to pay extra for the benefit of those Churches.

[© tweed]

the 280k member public service workers' union, ADEDY, has called a general strike for Wednesday, designed to coincide with the parliament vote on the "memorandum".

[ingemann]

If you have a working class job (however defined) chances are you don't work Saturdays - which is why Saturday was traditionally the biggest day of the week for shopping in Britain - and if you do work Saturdays (i.e. if you're in retail) then you'll have a weekday off. Historically it was also the case the grocers sold a lot of their wares via delivery vans and in recent decades supermarkets are obviously open longer than normal work hours on weekdays...

Only if you defines a working class job as a job in manufacturing, yes that's how working class was traditional defined. But in the West vastly more "working class" people work and earn less in service jobs rather than in manufacturing jobs. This means that a lot of people work saturday and sunday and those people who are in the lower categories of earners.
 

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Only if you defines a working class job as a job in manufacturing, yes that's how working class was traditional defined. But in the West vastly more "working class" people work and earn less in service jobs rather than in manufacturing jobs. This means that a lot of people work saturday and sunday and those people who are in the lower categories of earners.

Yeah (I have such a job atm and work Saturdays) but if you work weekends then generally you'll have time off during the week. And, again, supermarkets and corner shops are always open until way after normal working hours.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

Sunday closing is a luxury now? Good grief.

Well, it is a bit like fox hunt, isn't it? Something both abominable  and wastefulthat rich people nevertheless enjoy, if they can afford it.

Oh f-ck off... As a genetic part-ulsterman, the idea that Sunday closing is 'for rich people' is one of the strangest and most hilarious ideas I've ever heard. Clearly in Mexico or Russia they lack the tradition of Sabbatarianism so prevalent in parts of the British Isles (slowly diminishing as we speak).

But hey it's leisure, and we all know that only the rich can relax.

Here in the US, I think stores are allowed to be open whichever days of the week they feel like. I noticed some strange store that is only open on Saturdays.

[traininthedistance]

Bergen County, NJ– a large inner-suburban area just across the Hudson from NYC and home to almost a million people– still has on the books one of these "blue laws" that closes most stores on Sundays (restaurants, gas stations, and 7-11-type convenience stores are excepted).  This long past the point which the religious motivation matters.  Repealing them is sometimes floated and always contentious: a lot of people would like to be able to shop on Sundays, and businesses would like to have another day of the week to stay open and make money; but other folks oppose it because they think it preserves the area's suburban character and cuts down on traffic or whatever (the county of course is home to several large shopping malls which always become the focal points of this discussion, both pro and con).

Of course, all the people who live there then just shop in neighboring counties anyway, so I'm skeptical of that last point.  In any case, it doesn't seem to do a whole lot of harm but that's only because they're the only part of the metro that has such a rule: if shops were closed on Sunday everywhere, or worse if the ban extended to those excluded categories... it would not be pretty.

...

In any case, while I do think Sunday closings are actually really dumb that doesn't make the undemocratic method by which the Troika is fighting them any more palatable, nor does it really redeem eating-the-seed-corn measures like selling off $50 billion in assets and the electric grid.  The one thing I do genuinely agree with the Troika about is Greece's lack of up-to-date and usable code of civil procedure.  That's something where their demands are actually kind of reasonable.