looks like Tsipras has folded
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  looks like Tsipras has folded
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ag
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« Reply #125 on: July 13, 2015, 05:57:47 PM »
« edited: July 13, 2015, 06:01:24 PM by ag »


In any case, while I do think Sunday closings are actually really dumb that doesn't make the undemocratic method by which the Troika is fighting them any more palatable,

I can hardly find a more democratic way than a voluntary decision of Greek government and Greek parliament - and that is how these laws will be approved. The Greeks did have an option of not approving this things and introducing drachma tonight instead. It is their choice.

Enough.  Greeks are getting USD$100 billion in financing. Their banks would have all been bankrupt yesterday. There is no other country that has been given so much financial help in history, probably. All this moaning about "undemocratic imposition" is ridiculous. I would not at all mind my government to adopt a budget giving each Mexican a USD$20,000 dollars gift, or abolishing the income tax, or... whatever.  Unfortunately, you know, we do not have the money. Neither do the Greeks. There is nothing undemocratic in imposing budget constraint - or, for that matter, tradeoffs in exchange for their relaxation.
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ag
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« Reply #126 on: July 13, 2015, 06:02:15 PM »

nor does it really redeem eating-the-seed-corn measures like selling off $50 billion in assets

THAT, is, actually, simply ridiculous. Government has no business owning that stuff in the first place.

And, mind it, I find it extraordinarily lenient that the Greeks have not been forced to sell the Parthenon, the contents of the National Arqueological Museum, or, say, a few islands, instead.
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Nathan
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« Reply #127 on: July 13, 2015, 06:16:36 PM »

And, mind it, I find it extraordinarily lenient that the Greeks have not been forced to sell the Parthenon, the contents of the National Arqueological Museum, or, say, a few islands, instead.

You realize that you're, shall we say, rather exceptional in considering those at all permissible or even plausible options.
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MaxQue
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« Reply #128 on: July 13, 2015, 06:36:11 PM »

nor does it really redeem eating-the-seed-corn measures like selling off $50 billion in assets

THAT, is, actually, simply ridiculous. Government has no business owning that stuff in the first place.

And, mind it, I find it extraordinarily lenient that the Greeks have not been forced to sell the Parthenon, the contents of the National Arqueological Museum, or, say, a few islands, instead.

So, US government should sell Mt. Rushmore and the original Constitution paper to balance the budget?
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ag
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« Reply #129 on: July 13, 2015, 06:52:10 PM »

And, mind it, I find it extraordinarily lenient that the Greeks have not been forced to sell the Parthenon, the contents of the National Arqueological Museum, or, say, a few islands, instead.

You realize that you're, shall we say, rather exceptional in considering those at all permissible or even plausible options.

I know these are not plausible. And find that unfortunate Smiley
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ag
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« Reply #130 on: July 13, 2015, 06:53:22 PM »

nor does it really redeem eating-the-seed-corn measures like selling off $50 billion in assets

THAT, is, actually, simply ridiculous. Government has no business owning that stuff in the first place.

And, mind it, I find it extraordinarily lenient that the Greeks have not been forced to sell the Parthenon, the contents of the National Arqueological Museum, or, say, a few islands, instead.

So, US government should sell Mt. Rushmore and the original Constitution paper to balance the budget?

US has no problem servicing its debt, does it?

Also, frankly, I do not believe you would find a good price on Mt. Rushmore - it is just too ugly. But, if one were to be found, why not?
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The Last Northerner
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« Reply #131 on: July 13, 2015, 06:53:37 PM »
« Edited: July 13, 2015, 06:56:38 PM by The Last Northerner »

nor does it really redeem eating-the-seed-corn measures like selling off $50 billion in assets

THAT, is, actually, simply ridiculous. Government has no business owning that stuff in the first place.

And, mind it, I find it extraordinarily lenient that the Greeks have not been forced to sell the Parthenon, the contents of the National Arqueological Museum, or, say, a few islands, instead.

SERIOUSLY? Should Germany sold their castles after the World Wars to pay its debt? Should Colonge Cathedral be stripped apart and moved to France for the occupation?

Your claims of not being anti-Greek seem very shoddy here.
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ag
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« Reply #132 on: July 13, 2015, 06:57:09 PM »
« Edited: July 13, 2015, 06:59:31 PM by ag »

nor does it really redeem eating-the-seed-corn measures like selling off $50 billion in assets

THAT, is, actually, simply ridiculous. Government has no business owning that stuff in the first place.

And, mind it, I find it extraordinarily lenient that the Greeks have not been forced to sell the Parthenon, the contents of the National Arqueological Museum, or, say, a few islands, instead.

SERIOUSLY? Should Germany have sold their castles after the World Wars to pay its debt? Should Colonge Castle be stripped apart and moved to France for the occupation?

Your claims of not being anti-Greek seem very shoddy here.


Well, if we were back in 1921 or 1947, I would not be particularly averse to any of that. Hey, if anything got spared in bombing, that was already a mitzvah, was it not? And, most definitely, shipping of bits of arquitecture would have had a lot less of an impact on German economy than the reparations they were, actually, forced to pay post WWI.

The Cloisters in NY, BTW, is a masterpiece of museum work. And even in Mexico City, right next to where I live, there is a Spanish Chapel from the 12th century. Enjoy the view almost daily. Love it.
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Nathan
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« Reply #133 on: July 13, 2015, 10:42:37 PM »

I'm just not getting how these sorts of suggestions are supposed to be less objectionable than just forgiving Greece's debt or something would be.
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ag
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« Reply #134 on: July 13, 2015, 10:49:06 PM »

I'm just not getting how these sorts of suggestions are supposed to be less objectionable than just forgiving Greece's debt or something would be.

Which suggestions?

If you can persuade German voters that their government should "forgive Greek debt", it would be forgiven. I guess, Germans find it objectionable.
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Nathan
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« Reply #135 on: July 13, 2015, 10:59:09 PM »

I'm just not getting how these sorts of suggestions are supposed to be less objectionable than just forgiving Greece's debt or something would be.

Which suggestions?

Selling the Parthenon, et cetera.

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I really don't understand where the German public is coming from on this, and it's difficult for me to wrap my head around whatever individual or crowd psychology it is that leads to such a relentlessly hardline stance. Maybe I'm just too softhearted.
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ag
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« Reply #136 on: July 13, 2015, 11:05:41 PM »


Selling Parthenon hurts exactly nobody. It is an expensive heirloom, that could fetch a good load of cash. You are out of cash. Why not sell it?

Now, all I have inherited from my remote ancestors is some obscure shoe-making equipment, which I have no clue how to use. Hard for me to see why anybody would not want Parthenon in the British Museum anyway.  Unless, of course, it is becasue they want it at the Pergamon Smiley
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ag
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« Reply #137 on: July 13, 2015, 11:06:47 PM »


I really don't understand where the German public is coming from on this, and it's difficult for me to wrap my head around whatever individual or crowd psychology it is that leads to such a relentlessly hardline stance. Maybe I'm just too softhearted.

Because you are asking them to pay for it. Either through taxes, or through seignorage. And, like most people out there, they do not want to pay for somebody else.
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Nathan
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« Reply #138 on: July 13, 2015, 11:21:51 PM »

Selling Parthenon hurts exactly nobody. It is an expensive heirloom, that could fetch a good load of cash. You are out of cash. Why not sell it?

You know, I think this is probably one of those 'if you don't get it, there's no way to explain it to you' sorts of things.

Because you are asking them to pay for it. Either through taxes, or through seignorage. And, like most people out there, they do not want to pay for somebody else.

I understand that. But there should have been some limit, some point beyond which people started to realize that debt forgiveness would help Greece vastly more than it would hurt Germany, some point at which the insistence on taking the harshest imaginable line gave way to, if nothing else, pity. The fact that this didn't even come close to happening puts one in mind more of the attitudes that people have towards enemy Others than towards European partners, and I'm honestly outright repulsed by the nature and tone of political discourse within Germany. Again, maybe I'm too softhearted.
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The Last Northerner
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« Reply #139 on: July 14, 2015, 02:50:51 AM »

nor does it really redeem eating-the-seed-corn measures like selling off $50 billion in assets

THAT, is, actually, simply ridiculous. Government has no business owning that stuff in the first place.

And, mind it, I find it extraordinarily lenient that the Greeks have not been forced to sell the Parthenon, the contents of the National Arqueological Museum, or, say, a few islands, instead.

SERIOUSLY? Should Germany have sold their castles after the World Wars to pay its debt? Should Colonge Castle be stripped apart and moved to France for the occupation?

Your claims of not being anti-Greek seem very shoddy here.


Well, if we were back in 1921 or 1947, I would not be particularly averse to any of that. Hey, if anything got spared in bombing, that was already a mitzvah, was it not? And, most definitely, shipping of bits of arquitecture would have had a lot less of an impact on German economy than the reparations they were, actually, forced to pay post WWI.

The Cloisters in NY, BTW, is a masterpiece of museum work. And even in Mexico City, right next to where I live, there is a Spanish Chapel from the 12th century. Enjoy the view almost daily. Love it.

The economic impact of selling national monuments is minimal relative to the debt. It's the idea of selling your country's history and identity to a foreign country is immense. It would be tantamount to saying "you own us", which frankly on everyone's mind already.

It's not an economic option, it's national humuliation.

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Hydera
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« Reply #140 on: July 14, 2015, 05:33:22 AM »
« Edited: July 14, 2015, 05:49:00 AM by Hydera »

Selling Parthenon hurts exactly nobody. It is an expensive heirloom, that could fetch a good load of cash. You are out of cash. Why not sell it?

You know, I think this is probably one of those 'if you don't get it, there's no way to explain it to you' sorts of things.

Because you are asking them to pay for it. Either through taxes, or through seignorage. And, like most people out there, they do not want to pay for somebody else.

I understand that. But there should have been some limit, some point beyond which people started to realize that debt forgiveness would help Greece vastly more than it would hurt Germany, some point at which the insistence on taking the harshest imaginable line gave way to, if nothing else, pity. The fact that this didn't even come close to happening puts one in mind more of the attitudes that people have towards enemy Others than towards European partners, and I'm honestly outright repulsed by the nature and tone of political discourse within Germany. Again, maybe I'm too softhearted.

Debt forgiveness would only cause only european countries along with greece again, to do the same behavior of taking tons of loans to give out unsustainable promises to the electorate in exchange for votes.

If other european countries see that can borrow tons and tons of money and then throw temper tantrums and have their debt forgiven it creates a chain moral hazard.
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Miamiu1027
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« Reply #141 on: July 14, 2015, 07:36:41 AM »

Selling Parthenon hurts exactly nobody. It is an expensive heirloom, that could fetch a good load of cash. You are out of cash. Why not sell it?

You know, I think this is probably one of those 'if you don't get it, there's no way to explain it to you' sorts of things.

I'm pretty sure he grew up in the USSR, then made a career for himself in the West.  probably has a nice portfolio and everything.  such people hold "property rights" sacrosanct above all other rights.  the post-Castro Cuban emigres are horrible too.  I went to college with one -- she was really hot, but both of us saw fate pass us by as I apologized for Castro.
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SWE
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« Reply #142 on: July 14, 2015, 10:22:34 AM »

Greek Kerensky prepares to expel SYRIZA rebels from the party
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ag
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« Reply #143 on: July 14, 2015, 10:24:54 AM »

Selling Parthenon hurts exactly nobody. It is an expensive heirloom, that could fetch a good load of cash. You are out of cash. Why not sell it?

You know, I think this is probably one of those 'if you don't get it, there's no way to explain it to you' sorts of things.

I'm pretty sure he grew up in the USSR, then made a career for himself in the West.  probably has a nice portfolio and everything.  such people hold "property rights" sacrosanct above all other rights.  the post-Castro Cuban emigres are horrible too.  I went to college with one -- she was really hot, but both of us saw fate pass us by as I apologized for Castro.

Wrong on most counts. Did grow up in the USSR. Studied in the US, true. Is Mexico "West"? Because that is where I have been since. Have very little saved: none invested in the market (university sallary, kids, schools cost money).  And, though I do have healthy respect private property, I do not view it as "sacrosant", nor do I consider it more important than basic human rights: quite the contrary. I do, however, find that private property is frequently very useful in protecting those rights - but that is another matter.

National pride, though, is not a human right Smiley
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ag
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« Reply #144 on: July 14, 2015, 10:25:57 AM »


Yeah, you would prefer a Greek "for god's sake, shoot somebody" Lenin.
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Miamiu1027
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« Reply #145 on: July 14, 2015, 12:00:26 PM »

leaked IMF report: Greek sovereign debt will exceed 200% of GDP by 2017; far more debt relief will be needed to keep country in Eurozone
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Miamiu1027
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« Reply #146 on: July 14, 2015, 12:02:17 PM »

Selling Parthenon hurts exactly nobody. It is an expensive heirloom, that could fetch a good load of cash. You are out of cash. Why not sell it?

You know, I think this is probably one of those 'if you don't get it, there's no way to explain it to you' sorts of things.

I'm pretty sure he grew up in the USSR, then made a career for himself in the West.  probably has a nice portfolio and everything.  such people hold "property rights" sacrosanct above all other rights.  the post-Castro Cuban emigres are horrible too.  I went to college with one -- she was really hot, but both of us saw fate pass us by as I apologized for Castro.

Wrong on most counts. Did grow up in the USSR. Studied in the US, true. Is Mexico "West"? Because that is where I have been since. Have very little saved: none invested in the market (university sallary, kids, schools cost money).  And, though I do have healthy respect private property, I do not view it as "sacrosant", nor do I consider it more important than basic human rights: quite the contrary. I do, however, find that private property is frequently very useful in protecting those rights - but that is another matter.

that's even worse then; property has a psychological hold on you and it hasn't even treated you all that well.
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Vosem
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« Reply #147 on: July 14, 2015, 12:17:45 PM »

Selling Parthenon hurts exactly nobody. It is an expensive heirloom, that could fetch a good load of cash. You are out of cash. Why not sell it?

You know, I think this is probably one of those 'if you don't get it, there's no way to explain it to you' sorts of things.

I'm pretty sure he grew up in the USSR, then made a career for himself in the West.  probably has a nice portfolio and everything.  such people hold "property rights" sacrosanct above all other rights.  the post-Castro Cuban emigres are horrible too.  I went to college with one -- she was really hot, but both of us saw fate pass us by as I apologized for Castro.

Way to characterize hundreds of thousands of people in five sentences.

National pride, though, is not a human right Smiley

Perhaps not, but it is a fact in most countries around the world, and you must agree that a blow to national pride as severe as selling symbols of the country (like the Parthenon for Greece) would cause would create a much more powerful, and possibly violent, backlash than raising the same amount of money from slightly higher taxes or spending slightly less money on public services, even if a robot might calculate that the people would be better off in the first case. Note that no European leaders have demanded Greece sell off national heirlooms.


There will not be a successful left-wing uprising in Greece in the immediate future. The best you can hope for is the next elections being won by a left-wing SYRIZA breakaway group, though I'm inclined to believe they would turn Tsipras themselves out of fear of the consequences of breaking off of the Eurozone.

I understand that. But there should have been some limit, some point beyond which people started to realize that debt forgiveness would help Greece vastly more than it would hurt Germany, some point at which the insistence on taking the harshest imaginable line gave way to, if nothing else, pity. The fact that this didn't even come close to happening puts one in mind more of the attitudes that people have towards enemy Others than towards European partners, and I'm honestly outright repulsed by the nature and tone of political discourse within Germany. Again, maybe I'm too softhearted.

In the history of interactions between creditors and debtors, even when forgiving debt would help the debtor far more than it would hurt the creditor (as you say), normally the creditor does not forgive the debt, and in fact normally no one even expects him to. Germany is behaving the same way people have behaved basically since the invention of money.
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« Reply #148 on: July 14, 2015, 03:03:49 PM »

I think the disturbing thing for Eurozone countries is that, relatively speaking, Syriza is a moderate party. Greece has (and always has) an unusually strong far-left and far-right blocs both in and (more importantly, but less obvious for foreigners) out of parliament forces that oppose liberal democratic capitalism itself. Perhaps the EU bigwigs are under the impression that the humiliation of Tsipras et al. will lead the Greeks to swing back to the ND-centrist-PASOK block, especially with shiny young leaders for all three wings. This is playing with fire, to be honest; if a more disturbing and violent party arises Merkel, Rutte, Stubb and the like may regret their populist kneejerk anti-Syrizism.
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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #149 on: July 14, 2015, 03:09:44 PM »

Perhaps the EU bigwigs are under the impression that the humiliation of Tsipras et al. will lead the Greeks to swing back to the ND-centrist-PASOK block, especially with shiny young leaders for all three wings.

It wouldn't surprise me that they thought so. These people are criminally insane.
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