Constitutional Amendment to Right to Bear Arms

[Joe Republic]

I'm not entirely convinced that giving people the right to own any kind of explosives is a good idea, considering the existence of any hidden terrorist cells resident in Atlasia.

[Sam Spade]

I'm not entirely convinced that giving people the right to own any kind of explosives is a good idea, considering the existence of any hidden terrorist cells resident in Atlasia.

I thought this was what we had a CIA and FBI for.

[Joe Republic]

That's true, but to me this amendment only makes things worse for them.

BTW, I'm thinking more along the lines of a Tim McVeigh style terrorist more than any hidden al-Qaeda cells, as they're a heck of a lot harder to spot as being a terrorist, and a lot more likely to own a personal arsenal without having been asked a lot of questions first.

[Colin]

That's true, but to me this amendment only makes things worse for them.

BTW, I'm thinking more along the lines of a Tim McVeigh style terrorist more than any hidden al-Qaeda cells, as they're a heck of a lot harder to spot as being a terrorist, and a lot more likely to own a personal arsenal without having been asked a lot of questions first.

Must I remind you that even without the amendment reading, low-potency explosives, and with regulations against explosives, people like McVeigh can still easily get a hold of bomb making material. You have to remember that the Oklahoma City bomb was made out of fertilizer.

[MasterJedi]

That's true, but to me this amendment only makes things worse for them.

BTW, I'm thinking more along the lines of a Tim McVeigh style terrorist more than any hidden al-Qaeda cells, as they're a heck of a lot harder to spot as being a terrorist, and a lot more likely to own a personal arsenal without having been asked a lot of questions first.

Must I remind you that even without the amendment reading, low-potency explosives, and with regulations against explosives, people like McVeigh can still easily get a hold of bomb making material. You have to remember that the Oklahoma City bomb was made out of fertilizer.

Colin makes a good point, if people want to get explosives that will kill tons of people then there's really no stopping them.

[Joe Republic]

My point was mainly that by allowing everybody the right to own mortars and grenades and whatnot, we're also allowing psychos to do the same.  As far as the constitutional amendment goes, fine.  But I would expect some pretty restrictive legislation to go with it, in order to prevent this.

[Colin]

My point was mainly that by allowing everybody the right to own mortars and grenades and whatnot, we're also allowing psychos to do the same.  As far as the constitutional amendment goes, fine.  But I would expect some pretty restrictive legislation to go with it, in order to prevent this.

Well it is within the Senate's powers to define what a low-potency explosive is or what is low-potency.

[Peter]

My point was mainly that by allowing everybody the right to own mortars and grenades and whatnot, we're also allowing psychos to do the same.  As far as the constitutional amendment goes, fine.  But I would expect some pretty restrictive legislation to go with it, in order to prevent this.

Well it is within the Senate's powers to define what a low-potency explosive is or what is low-potency.

Not anymore - Sam's amendment to this removed such power, and effectively final decision of quite what our intent was will be decided in the Courts. Which is amusing because I'm not entirely sure that anybody really knows what our intent is.

[Sam Spade]

My point was mainly that by allowing everybody the right to own mortars and grenades and whatnot, we're also allowing psychos to do the same.  As far as the constitutional amendment goes, fine.  But I would expect some pretty restrictive legislation to go with it, in order to prevent this.

Well it is within the Senate's powers to define what a low-potency explosive is or what is low-potency.

Not anymore - Sam's amendment to this removed such power, and effectively final decision of quite what our intent was will be decided in the Courts. Which is amusing because I'm not entirely sure that anybody really knows what our intent is.

With anything like this, intent can be manipulated with the power of a few. 

My final thought was, considering how this forum tends to be, I would rather not give Senators the final power to determine what this clause could mean (always thinking of things like the Third Senate) and would rather give it to the courts, since people are less likely to bring court cases than present legislation.

Chances are, with an amendment like this, it will keep things in the Regions.  That was also my intention in removing the clause.

[Gabu]

My point was mainly that by allowing everybody the right to own mortars and grenades and whatnot, we're also allowing psychos to do the same.  As far as the constitutional amendment goes, fine.  But I would expect some pretty restrictive legislation to go with it, in order to prevent this.

Well it is within the Senate's powers to define what a low-potency explosive is or what is low-potency.

Not anymore - Sam's amendment to this removed such power, and effectively final decision of quite what our intent was will be decided in the Courts. Which is amusing because I'm not entirely sure that anybody really knows what our intent is.

With anything like this, intent can be manipulated with the power of a few. 

My final thought was, considering how this forum tends to be, I would rather not give Senators the final power to determine what this clause could mean (always thinking of things like the Third Senate) and would rather give it to the courts, since people are less likely to bring court cases than present legislation.

Chances are, with an amendment like this, it will keep things in the Regions.  That was also my intention in removing the clause.

Why don't you just make the amendment explicitly say that each region has the right to define "low-potency", if that's what you want?

[Sam Spade]

My point was mainly that by allowing everybody the right to own mortars and grenades and whatnot, we're also allowing psychos to do the same.  As far as the constitutional amendment goes, fine.  But I would expect some pretty restrictive legislation to go with it, in order to prevent this.

Well it is within the Senate's powers to define what a low-potency explosive is or what is low-potency.

Not anymore - Sam's amendment to this removed such power, and effectively final decision of quite what our intent was will be decided in the Courts. Which is amusing because I'm not entirely sure that anybody really knows what our intent is.

With anything like this, intent can be manipulated with the power of a few. 

My final thought was, considering how this forum tends to be, I would rather not give Senators the final power to determine what this clause could mean (always thinking of things like the Third Senate) and would rather give it to the courts, since people are less likely to bring court cases than present legislation.

Chances are, with an amendment like this, it will keep things in the Regions.  That was also my intention in removing the clause.

Why don't you just make the amendment explicitly say that each region has the right to define "low-potency", if that's what you want?

Because that's already sort of a given.  Since the Senate has no power in "powers of the Senate" to define these sorts of things, it will be up to the Regions to.

And the courts will be the final arbiter as to whether regional law fulfills the intent of the clause.

I am all for defining things clearly.  However, with certain things, like this amendment, the more we define things clearly, the more loopholes are given.  I would prefer to keep it rather vague.

Sorry if I shifted my own opinion on this one.  I occasionally do that.

[Gabu]

Any more debate?  I'm going to call a vote in two hours if nobody else has anything to say.

[MAS117]

 Can someone tell me what the point of owning a "low-potency explosives" besides for blowing sh**t up, and hurting other people? Adding this is useless. I'm all for not infringing on the right to bear arms, but low potency explosives is crossing the line. Why make it easier for terriosts to own explosives no matter how "low-potency" they are. Sure I not for banning fireworks and that crap, but just because it doesnt say "low-potency explosives" in the consitution doesnt mean thats illegal. I URGE ALL SENATORS TO VOTE NAY OR CHANGE THERE VOTE TO NAY.

[Sam Spade]

Can someone tell me what the point of owning a "low-potency explosives" besides for blowing sh**t up, and hurting other people? Adding this is useless. I'm all for not infringing on the right to bear arms, but low potency explosives is crossing the line. Why make it easier for terriosts to own explosives no matter how "low-potency" they are. Sure I not for banning fireworks and that crap, but just because it doesnt say "low-potency explosives" in the consitution doesnt mean thats illegal. I URGE ALL SENATORS TO VOTE NAY OR CHANGE THERE VOTE TO NAY.

As history tells us, terrorists can get explosives any way they want to, regardless of what "laws" we may put in the way.  The best way to prevent terrorism in this country is to go after the terrorists themselves using law enforcement and by making sure that checks on who is allowed to own these things (ie, not criminals) are enforced.

I would also like to ask the distinguished Senator to please not shout in the Senate.  We can all hear him loud and clear. 

[Sam Spade]

Considering as 24 hours have passed, I motion to bring this amendment to a vote.

[Peter]

With 6 votes for, 1 against, 1 abstention and two not voting, this amendment has passed.

Voting will now begin on the Amendment as a whole which reads:

The right to keep and bear fire-arms and low-potency explosives shall not be infringed.

All Senators please vote Aye/Nay/Abstain.

[MasterJedi]

Aye

[Colin]

Aye

[Sam Spade]

Aye.

[Gabu]

Aye.

Sorry I've been kinda letting things slip lately; I'll try to pick up the pace and keep on top of things from now on.

[jokerman]

Aye

[PBrunsel]

Aye

Never really solved the low potency explosives thing for me, but the amendment is a good one any how.

[DanielX]

Aye.

[Gabu]

This now has enough votes to pass; senators now have 24 hours to change their votes.

[King]

Aye for the record.