Politics and Elections in the Netherlands: coalition agreement presented

[DavidB.]

I'm sorry for having been silent this long. I was on a long holiday.

So what happened during the summer?
- Surprise, surprise: nothing has yet been done with the referendum result.
- Not much has changed in the polls. The last Peilingwijzer looks as follows:



- A PvdA leadership election will take place before the next election, which is scheduled on March 15, 2017 (although there has been some speculation that the coalition will collapse in order to provide an opportunity for both parties to avert a seemingly inevitable electoral blow, we should still assume the next election is going to take place only then). The leadership election will take place between November 24 and December 8. Diederik Samsom, current PvdA leader, will seek to be nominated again. There were rumors about popular Rotterdam mayor Ahmed Aboutaleb contesting in the election, but he declined and will not be a candidate. Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for the Interior Lodewijk Asscher, who is clearly on the right of the party, will decide on his political future in October. Candidates for the leadership election can apply until October 7. It is hard to tell who would win a race between Samsom and Asscher. The latter would probably be slightly more popular in the general election (not that it matters much, at this point), but that doesn't necessarily influence the "primary", as we all know...
- Since the Turkish coup, there has been much tension between Turkish communities in the Netherlands, specifically between pro-Gülen communities and pro-Erdogan/Diyanet communities. This has occasionally led to violent incidents and intimidation. Only today, a prominent Gülen supporter in the Netherlands called for the deportation of most Diyanet imams in the Netherlands on the front page of tabloid Algemeen Dagblad. That is obviously not going to happen, but this issue will likely remain relevant.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Holidays should always come before politics imo, so that's sensible.

[mvd10]

https://d66.nl/content/uploads/sites/2/2016/04/Tijdpad-Tweede-Kamerverkiezing-2017-Verkiezingsprogramma.pdf

According to this schedule D66 will release a draft of their 2017 election platform tomorrow. D66 has become a lot more right wing on economic issues the past few years, so I wonder what their platform will be like.

http://www.bnr.nl/nieuws/politiek/10309553/vvd-schuift-met-nieuw-verkiezingsprogramma-richting-pvv

The VVD platform will focus on security and restricting immigration. Bruijn (the platform writer) says people worry whether the Netherlands will stay the Netherlands and whether civil rights (LGBT rights, free speech) will be protected. He also says that while we should help real refugees with no other place to go, we shouldn't cram the Netherlands with hopeless economic refugees.

The VVD will also work on improving living conditions for the elderly. You wouldn't expect something like this being a priority to the VVD, but Wilders loves to accuse the coalition of neglecting the elderly while sending billions to southern Europe, so the VVD probably hopes to win PVV voters this way.

EDIT:

Apparently the draft version of the D66 platform will be released next week:

https://d66.nl/content/uploads/sites/2/2016/04/Tijdpad-Tweede-Kamerverkiezing-2017-Verkiezingsprogramma-Extern.pdf

[mvd10]

http://nos.nl/artikel/2128155-pvv-presenteert-programma-alle-azc-s-dicht.html

The PVV just released a draft version of their manifesto:

1. No more refugees, no more immigrants from Islamic countries, close all Islamic schools, close all mosques, ban the Quran
2. Nexit
3. More direct democracy
4. Eliminate health insurance copays
5. Lower rents
6. Lower the retirement age to 65
7. Eliminate subsidies for innovation, art and wind turbines, eliminate all development aid spending, cut all NOS (the public broadcaster) funding
8. Roll back some healthcare cuts
9. More defense and police spending
10. Cut income taxes by 3 billion (roughly 0.5% of GDP, so it will be a fairly small tax cut)
11. Cut vehicle excise duty

Pathetic. I can understand the reasoning behind closing Islamic schools, but banning the Quran and closing all mosques? Wtf? Lowering the retirement age, more rent controls and eliminating health insurance copays are all terrible ideas too.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

I suppose the PVV know that they're not exactly going to need to form a coalition or anything, an account of being toxic; so they might as well go fully loopy.

[DavidB.]

Pathetic. I can understand the reasoning behind closing Islamic schools, but banning the Quran and closing all Mosques? Wtf? Lowering the retirement age, more rent controls and eliminating health insurance copays are all terrible ideas too.

It's bad, but it's nothing new -- they've been saying this for years. The Qur'an ban was already in their 2012 election manifesto, and they have advocated closing all mosques since 2014. I don't really understand your surprise.

[DavidB.]

The next two posts (which I can apparently not post at once due to the limit of 11000 characters per post) discusses parties' current situation, well before the start of the general election campaign.

Dutch voters are notoriously volatile. A lot will happen before the election, and a lot of voters will end up voting differently than they now tell pollsters. Moreover, it is not clear whether the coalition will actually last until the end. If the coalition collapses before March, this will of course influence the campaign and people's opinion of both government parties. In sum, there is a lot we don't know. Still, it makes sense to discuss the parties' positions at this point, before the start of the campaign but well at the end of this government's tenure.

VVD: While the party will undoubtedly lose seats due to the government's unpopularity, the VVD's position is actually not as bad as it looks. A big seat loss looks inevitable, but if I had to place a bet on which party will end up the largest, I would say it is going to be the VVD again (it could also be the PVV, but I still think it's just not actually going to happen). The VVD should do everything to ensure the government will last, because that will look very good on the VVD and PM Mark Rutte. Many center-right Dutch people find stability important. It is these people that gave the VVD the election victory in the Provincial elections in 2015, and despite disagreements with certain government policies, they are likely to vote for the VVD in the general election too. Mark Rutte is great at campaigning. He will nevertheless face an uphill battle: people have not forgotten all of his broken promises (1000 euros for every working family, no new Greek bailout, no more transfer of sovereignty to Brussels, etc...) of the 2012 campaign and there are many voters who voted for the VVD in 2012 yet will definitely not vote for them in 2017; most of them will opt for the PVV. Again, the VVD is likely to have a very right-wing campaign in which as many VVD-PVV swing voters will be convinced that the VVD is tough enough. This will be much harder than in 2012, and the VVD will be attacked by D66 leader Pechtold for it, which may cause the VVD to lose higher educated high-income voters. But the party's floor is very high. If Wilders blows it, the VVD may very well come 1st again, allowing Rutte to form a new government.

PvdA: There's no denying that the PvdA are in dire straits. PvdA leader Diederik Samsom seems to be tone deaf: he keeps talking about the achievements of the government while not understanding that most left-wingers and most PvdA 2012 voters hate this government. He is being honest, but honesty doesn't work if people don't like what you say. It remains to be seen whether he will win his primary. Lodewijk Asscher and Ahmed Aboutaleb would be best placed to minimize the scope of the seat loss in the general election, but Aboutaleb already announced not to run and if Asscher is smart, he should also not do it (but I don't know if he is). The PvdA is going to lose at least 15 seats (they won 38/150 in 2012). Regardless of how complicated coalition formation is going to be, they will need a stint in opposition to do some soul-searching. For the party, it would probably be the best if Samson runs in the election and is dumped afterwards. It makes no sense to elect Asscher, have him lose a lot of seats and lose him too. Another issue with Asscher is that he is on the right of his party and probably even more out of touch with the average potential PvdA voter than Samsom. As Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for the Interior of Social Affairs, he is also deeply attached to and responsible for the current government's policies.

PVV: This is really the wildcard of the election. If Wilders is smart, he could end up leading the first radical right-wing party to become the largest in Western Europe in a first-order election, which is no small feat. But the PVV generally aren't strong campaigners. Wilders participates in the tv debates, but the party has no ground game due to the fact that it doesn't even have any members (apart from Wilders and the "Foundation for Friends of the PVV", of which the chairman is... Geert Wilders). If he doesn't make statements that are considered too extreme, he may win a lot of votes. But with Wilders you never know. The main message of the campaign is also important. In 2012, the PVV went on and on about the EU, but this was not a prominent theme in the campaign, which was mainly about the economy; in that way, Wilders made himself irrelevant. The party would be wise not to make the same mistake again. It seems security issues will be the main theme in this campaign. Of course, Wilders should do better here. The more seats the PVV win, the more difficult government formation is going to be, the more parties will have to be included in the government, and the more of a field day the PVV will have in opposition.

SP: When the main Social Democratic party of a country is part of an extremely unpopular coalition with the main right-wing party, and the coalition's policies are largely about "reforming" the economy, the main socialist party to the left of the Social Democratic should do absolutely great. All the preconditions for an SP all-time high exist. But it's not going to happen, and it's their own fault. Before the 2012 election, the SP skyrocketed in the polls -- but then party leader Emile Roemer bombed during the debates, coming off as a friendly provincial uncle who is a nice person but doesn't know anything about the 'important figures'  and cannot be trusted to lead the country. Whether justified or not, he never got rid of this image and should have been dumped after the disappointing 2012 election result. Since the SP is about as democratic as the GDR, this didn't happen, and the SP's performance in opposition can be qualified as lackluster at best. One exception: Foreign Affairs spokesman Harry van Bommel led a convincing SP campaign in the Ukraine referendum. Unfortunately for the SP, Van Bommel will retire as an MP to do something for some non-profit international organization. So the SP will likely end up with about as many seats as in 2012 (15), and possibly even fewer. Talk about missing opportunities.

[DavidB.]

CDA: The Christian Democrats suffered terribly in the last election, ending up at 13 seats, a clear all-time low. Contrary to popular belief among non-Dutch politics spergs, the CDA participating in the failed minority government supported by the PVV was not (or only to a very small extent) the reason of this loss, since the CDA left did not abandon the party in the election. The CDA mainly lost another chunk of voters to the VVD; some of whom were sympathetic to PM Balkenende and therefore voted for him in 2010, but did not want the PvdA to become the largest party in the 2012 two-horse race with the VVD. Their current level of support is somewhat higher than in the 2012 election, mainly because of the fact that tactical VVD voters have returned to the nest, but it is clear that Sybrand Buma is not one to make the CDA Great Again. It is also not clear whether this person exists at all. The CDA should improve on their 2012 performance and will be part of the next government. Expectations don't seem to be high anymore. The same goes for the energy.

D66: The social liberals surprised with their concept election manifesto, in which they announced that it will be a priority for them to make sure that young people get a permanent contract. This goes against their former policy according to which the "flexibilization of the labor market" is both a desirable and inevitable consequence of modernity and globalization. This flexibilization, however, is not popular with actual young people, who go from internship to temporary low-paid job to another internship. (While often forgotten, it is good to note that this is generally much more relevant for the highly educated than for others, but these are of course the people D66 are catering to). It seems D66 is prioritizing being a party for the young than being a party that wants to make everything even more flexible. Apart from that, D66 will come up with a relatively right-wing economic program combined with progressive views on immaterial issues (such as the legalization of MDMA/XTC, which is already used extremely liberally at many parties). For D66 leader Alexander Pechtold, this should be the last election: there is starting to be more criticism internally on the way he has become so important for D66. Regardless, D66 voters will be just fine with Pechtold and his rebuttals of Wilders' one-liners. In that regard, not much has changed compared to 2010. D66 will likely be a part of the next government. It appears Pechtold cannot wait to govern with the VVD and the CDA.

ChristenUnie: The ChristenUnie replaced their former boring leader Arie Slob with a guy who may be just as boring, Gert-Jan Segers (tbh I had to Google his name, that's how unremarkable he is). CU are not the party to say extreme things or have an extremely different election result. As a constructive party, CU may be a part of the next government if the formation process is going to be difficult, but supporting a minority government from the outside would also be an option.

GroenLinks: Terrible result in 2012, but on track for an absolutely great result -- perhaps the best ever -- in 2017. New, young leader Jesse Klaver is popular and is currently the star of the Dutch left. A Justin Trudeau lookalike (and he knows it, imitating him), Klaver is a good-looking guy who has been a GL MP for a while and wrote a book about "economism", which would be the tendency in politics to only take interest in figures and numbers instead of looking at people's needs and wants. Klaver advocates looking at issues in a less "economic" way. I don't think any of these ideas are new, but Klaver sells them as such and he is certainly good at promoting them. Many disappointed PvdA 2012 voters will end up voting for GL this time. Still, it is not clear whether Klaver will be good enough during the telly debates. Criticizing Samsom's record may be easy, but Alexander Pechtold may be a lot harder to debate. GL will be positioning themselves as most "humanist" party. Klaver already echoed Merkel's "Wir schaffen das" comment in Dutch; GL will call for taking in many more migrants.

SGP: Kees van der Staaij, who comes across as a nice and reasonable person even for those who disagree with him, is a master at getting media attention for views that the SGP has been espousing for decades. SGP billboards protesting adultery appeared along Dutch highways. The party is gaining traction among both Catholics, who think the CDA isn't conservative enough anymore, and a select group of secular conservatives, who lament the CDA's supposed leftism and the PVV's secularism. Meanwhile, birth rates among Dutch Reformed protestants remain high. Maintaining the party's current 3 seats seems realistic; winning 4 would be special, but could very well happen.

PvdD: Not much has changed in the PvdD's "act", but they have certainly become more popular. Animal Parties will always remain niche parties, but the PvdD should be able to improve on their 2012 performance -- if Jesse Klaver doesn't end up stealing the show and ruining it for them.

50Plus: Egotistical olds don't care about the dumpster fire this party is internally. Probably going to win 2-3 seats again.

Relevant split-offs that will contest in the next election:

VNL: Two-man split-off from the PVV, running a supposedly classical liberal party. The focus on security hurts their chances to win seats in the next election, because they will likely not be able to sufficiently distinguish themselves from the PVV (as opposed to economic issues). Bontes and Van Klaveren's dream is likely going to die.

DENK: Two-man split-off from the PvdA. As opposed to VNL, Kuzu and Ozturk have a very real chance of getting elected. Polarization between Turks and Dutch is beneficial for them, because it may help at maxing out the Turkish vote. I wouldn't be surprised if DENK turns out to be the single most popular party among Turkish-Dutch voters. One or two seats should be in the pocket. More may or may not happen, depending on the circumstances (such as a virtually big PVV late in the campaign).

Again, it is highly relevant to note that a lot can and will change. Tactical voting might change the picture altogether for some of the parties. But these are the situations in which the parties find themselves for now.

[mvd10]

Pathetic. I can understand the reasoning behind closing Islamic schools, but banning the Quran and closing all Mosques? Wtf? Lowering the retirement age, more rent controls and eliminating health insurance copays are all terrible ideas too.

It's bad, but it's nothing new -- they've been saying this for years. The Qur'an ban was already in their 2012 election manifesto, and they have advocated closing all mosques since 2014. I don't really understand your surprise.

You're right. I don't know how I missed that. I always thought they only wanted a ban on building new mosques.

D66 wants to make sure everyone can get a permanent contract, but they also want to make it easier to fire people, so it's not like they suddenly oppose a flexible labour market.

Asscher is the Minister of Social affairs btw.

[DavidB.]

You're right, Plasterk's of course at the Interior. Asscher being at Social Affairs makes it even worse for the PvdA and for himself, come to think of it.

[Zanas]

I once took a one-morning-long nap in a toilet booth in the Ministry of Social Affairs in Den Haag. Long story that involves lots of whisky and cannabis. Fun times.

[Oldiesfreak1854]

Will there be a referendum there to leave the EU?  I know there's been talk of it.

[DavidB.]

Will there be a referendum there to leave the EU?  I know there's been talk of it.

No, because no government is ever going to organize one.

[Dutch Conservative]

VVD: While the party will undoubtedly lose seats due to the government's unpopularity, the VVD's position is actually not as bad as it looks. A big seat loss looks inevitable, but if I had to place a bet on which party will end up the largest, I would say it is going to be the VVD again (it could also be the PVV, but I still think it's just not actually going to happen).

(...)

Again, it is highly relevant to note that a lot can and will change. Tactical voting might change the picture altogether for some of the parties. But these are the situations in which the parties find themselves for now.

I agree with this. I do think it's still possible for the VVD to win some seats. Rutte is still pretty popular. At this moment that party is getting the credits for the state of the economy, wich is (on the surface) pretty OK. I think much will depend on who is going to lead the PvdA. When it's Samsom that party will totally collapse. With Aboutaleb or Asscher things might go differently. Also, I know quit a few CDA-voters who turned to VVD last time. I don't see them coming back to the CDA. That party just has a huge problem: poor leadership and an unclear course.

Much can happen between now and march as you say, but when I had to gamble now I would bet on a coalition of VVD, D'66 and CDA, with if necessary a fourth party like ChristenUnie or GroenLinks (seems unlikely).

Great overview btw!

[DavidB.]

Thanks. Aboutaleb won't lead the PvdA, he ruled it out already. So that leaves us with Samsom (will definitely compete in the primary), Asscher (may or may not compete), or someone else (who would have to be more than a little masochistic).

I wouldn't be surprised if the next government will be a minority government again, based on a core of VVD-CDA-D66 with various parties (CU, SGP are obvious potential partners) backing them up from the outside, on the basis of various deals. But it all depends on the seat distribution, and we all thought the coalition would include 3+ parties before the last election too, until everything changed. If, however, the field remains as fragmented as is currently the case, coalition formation will be an outright disaster.

[Zinneke]

Will there be a referendum there to leave the EU?  I know there's been talk of it.

Nexit would destroy a Dutch economy that is reliant on doing Germany's dirty work in services and exporting to there too. It would be far, far worse than brexit unless Germany decided to leave too. With London potentially losing some financial services, the Randstad is perfectly placed to take over given the high levels of English proficiency, education, and tax exemptions and legal loopholes the Hollander cliques from law school fraternities like to advertise.

Like every other right-wing populist in Europe, what the average Dutch eurosceptic wants is all the benefits of Europe without the drawbacks - these people tend to vote VVD - and then the Wilders-voting tokkies who think its an islamo-bolshevik conspiracy to destroy their country.

What they could be is the new UK if Rutte gets another term. He will go to every conference as the petulant child instead of Cameron. He was always David's best buddy at the council meetings. And he will try to siphon PVV votes as much as possible, because he can't go left without angering his party.  

[DavidB.]

Will there be a referendum there to leave the EU?  I know there's been talk of it.

Nexit would destroy a Dutch economy that is reliant on doing Germany's dirty work in services and exporting to there too. It would be far, far worse than brexit unless Germany decided to leave too. With London potentially losing some financial services, the Randstad is perfectly placed to take over given the high levels of English proficiency, education, and tax exemptions and legal loopholes the Hollander cliques from law school fraternities like to advertise.

Like every other right-wing populist in Europe, what the average Dutch eurosceptic wants is all the benefits of Europe without the drawbacks - these people tend to vote VVD - and then the Wilders-voting tokkies who think its an islamo-bolshevik conspiracy to destroy their country.

What they could be is the new UK if Rutte gets another term. He will go to every conference as the petulant child instead of Cameron. He was always David's best buddy at the council meetings. And he will try to siphon PVV votes as much as possible, because he can't go left.  

[/opinion]

Also, implying tokkies know what bolsheviks are...

[Zinneke]

Will there be a referendum there to leave the EU?  I know there's been talk of it.

Nexit would destroy a Dutch economy that is reliant on doing Germany's dirty work in services and exporting to there too. It would be far, far worse than brexit unless Germany decided to leave too. With London potentially losing some financial services, the Randstad is perfectly placed to take over given the high levels of English proficiency, education, and tax exemptions and legal loopholes the Hollander cliques from law school fraternities like to advertise.

Like every other right-wing populist in Europe, what the average Dutch eurosceptic wants is all the benefits of Europe without the drawbacks - these people tend to vote VVD - and then the Wilders-voting tokkies who think its an islamo-bolshevik conspiracy to destroy their country.

What they could be is the new UK if Rutte gets another term. He will go to every conference as the petulant child instead of Cameron. He was always David's best buddy at the council meetings. And he will try to siphon PVV votes as much as possible, because he can't go left.  

[/opinion]

Also, implying tokkies know what bolsheviks are...

Speaking of opinions, what is yours on an ethnic minority importing their ''own'' conflict from ''back home'' (i.e a broken country ruled a deep state) into the host society? This should be your area of expertise after all...

[DavidB.]

Will there be a referendum there to leave the EU?  I know there's been talk of it.

Nexit would destroy a Dutch economy that is reliant on doing Germany's dirty work in services and exporting to there too. It would be far, far worse than brexit unless Germany decided to leave too. With London potentially losing some financial services, the Randstad is perfectly placed to take over given the high levels of English proficiency, education, and tax exemptions and legal loopholes the Hollander cliques from law school fraternities like to advertise.

Like every other right-wing populist in Europe, what the average Dutch eurosceptic wants is all the benefits of Europe without the drawbacks - these people tend to vote VVD - and then the Wilders-voting tokkies who think its an islamo-bolshevik conspiracy to destroy their country.

What they could be is the new UK if Rutte gets another term. He will go to every conference as the petulant child instead of Cameron. He was always David's best buddy at the council meetings. And he will try to siphon PVV votes as much as possible, because he can't go left. 

[/opinion]

Also, implying tokkies know what bolsheviks are...

Speaking of opinions, what is yours on an ethnic minority importing their ''own'' conflict from ''back home'' (i.e a broken country ruled a deep state) into the host society? This should be your area of expertise after all...

Excuse you?

[DavidB.]

Let's get back to discussing Dutch politics after this very weird comment.

VNL announced Jan Roos will be its new party leader. Jan Roos is known for his provocative journalism for public broadcaster PowNed as well as for political shock blog GeenStijl. He was one of the main figures in the campaign for the referendum and against the EU Association Agreement. GeenStijl and Roos cooperated closely with VNL during that campaign, so his move was widely anticipated. I cancelled my VNL membership over this.

It doesn't seem likely that the party will obtain any seats in the coming election, since small parties aren't invited to the big telly debates and barely get any media attention during the campaign unless they do very well in the polls, which isn't the case for VNL (they're at 0). Niche parties like SGP, PvdD, 50Plus and DENK can manage without such attention, but VNL relies on it: if it doesn't get it, their target voters will just vote for the PVV (or the VVD), which is exactly what is going to happen.

[Zinneke]

I was referring to the ongoing tensions amongst Turkish minorities in the Netherlands, and the intervention of the Turkish ambassador, who 'overstepped' his mark according to the Mayor of Rotterdam, who has received backing from the CDA and SP on the matter. In Belgium too an SP.a member got expelled for being an outspoken pro-Erdogan supporter and is thinking of setting a similar party to DENK. The N-VA condemned Turkish people for bringing in their politics to the country, all while preparing legislation for Belgian tax exiles abroad to be able to vote!

Of course, in an ideal world, De Wever is right. Ethnic minorities should not bring their conflicts from back home with them into the country and onto our streets. But, then again, as evidenced by the toxic Israel-Palestine debate, parties are more than willing to adopt stances to please such minorities - some of whom have never even set foot in the region - in order to win votes. This is where we can hear your expertise, DavidB, since you seem to judge candidates, whether in the US or Netherlands, based on how strongly they represent the Israeli right-wing's interests...

[DavidB.]

Are you seriously doubling down on this? It was perfectly clear what you were referring to, no need to waste any words on making explicit your implications, which are frankly kind of racist -- it doesn't exactly look good on you. My comment on DENK's electoral chances was purely factual... You may disagree with my outlook, but your personalized comments are clearly uncalled for (and your assumptions on my views regarding Turkish Dutch people having opinions of the political unrest in Turkey are 100% wrong, which makes it even sadder) and you know it. I urge you to keep your issues with the views you think I have outside this thread. Preferably outside this forum too. Thanks.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

So is DANK an Islamist party or merely a Turkish minority interest group?

[DavidB.]

So is DANK an Islamist party or merely a Turkish minority interest group?

Islamist they are not, but obviously they support pro-Muslim policies. They will probably be primarily  a Turkish party (especially when it comes to the initial voter base), but pretend not to be solely a Turkish party and there is some merit to that: from their voting behavior and their remarks in parliament one can tell they try to advocate all "ethnic minority interests", including Moroccans and Surinamese (but, needless to say, excluding Armenians, Kurds, and Jews). For example, they also want a museum on Dutch colonial crimes, oppose Dutch Krampus "Zwarte Piet", and asked parliamentary questions when "driving while black" issues occurred. Whether this attempt to include Surinamese is genuine or simply based on electoral calculations is not entirely clear to me, but I get the impression that it may well be the former option.

[Zinneke]

Are you seriously doubling down on this? It was perfectly clear what you were referring to, no need to waste any words on making your implications, which are frankly kind of racist,

Where on earth did you get the implication that I was being racist towards ethnic minorities? I'm not saying all ethnic minorities do this, I'm saying some people from ethnic minorities bring their home politics into ours, and they have a right to do this, but as De Wever says it can create problems, like the ones we are seeing right now in Belgium and the Netherlands. Here's another example of that : http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2016/08/one-in-five-children-withdrawn-from-amsterdam-school-linked-to-turkish-gulen-movement/

The issue had not been brought up yet so I brought it up. Obviously with the tong-in-cheek reference to Israel-Palestine and your stance on it. I thought it was a fairly harmless comment though. I guess I was mistaken and I'm sorry.