Politics and Elections in the Netherlands: coalition agreement presented

[Klartext89]

Is 50plus (the Partys leadership, not the electorate) closer to the Right (anti-EU, EU-sceptical, against Islam, against mass immigration) or the Left (pro-EU, against own country and People, pro mass immigration, loving Islam)?

In other words, despite rhetoric in the election campaign, is it possible to form a government with PVV, VVD, 50plus, CU e.g.?

Yeah, well, one day he will grow out of it. Its best just to ignore the total hypocrisy of the alt-right. They will make their own bed and lay in it. I just hope they go back to being non-voters when they realise its a sham.

I see, I ran into two real experts with lots of arguments ;-)

Nevertheless, thanks for your long answer above, it doesn't really answer my basic question but at least you tried.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

it is not possible to form a stable government with PVV and any party.

[DavidB.]

As I expected, the VVD has today reached a new stage in its campaign by moving to the right and talking tough after excluding the PVV. In a "letter to the Dutch people", widely published today, Mark Rutte states that "something is going on with our country" and denounces "those who came to our country for our freedom yet now abuse those freedoms", "people who don't want to adapt to our society and dismiss our traditions and values, "I understand very well that many people think: if you dismiss our country in such a fundamental way, I'd prefer you leave. That's how I feel too. Either behave yourself or leave." This is a recurring theme on the Dutch center right and reminiscent of Balkenende's talk on "norms and values" which went over very well among generic right-wingers in the suburbs. The cynic in me also notes that this is not and will never be tied to actual policies: Rutte is merely selling feelings. At the same time he also denounces "those who want to divide our society" (=Wilders) and ends his letter with stating that despite everything, he wouldn't want to live anywhere else. "Would you?"

Rutte seeks to present himself as a tough-talking PM who "tells it like it is" yet at the same time as a Prime Ministerial, responsible leader who denounces everything that can be seen as divisive. It remains to be seen whether this strategy will work, but my gut feeling says it just may. At the same time, Buma/Pechtold will attack him on the continuation of the "piss off" theme (which he said in a tv show in October referring to immigrant youth harassing people) and Wilders will attack him on the fact that he doesn't actually propose anything to make people "piss off" and that his statements are not tied to actual proposals for policies. Opinion polls show that people view Rutte as the "lesser evil" and prefer him as PM over most other party leaders, yet at the same time do not believe him: he has a real credibility problem. Still, the VVD's campaign seems to be improving.

[Klartext89]

Is 50plus (the Partys leadership, not the electorate) closer to the Right (anti-EU, EU-sceptical, against Islam, against mass immigration) or the Left (pro-EU, against own country and People, pro mass immigration, loving Islam)?

In other words, despite rhetoric in the election campaign, is it possible to form a government with PVV, VVD, 50plus, CU e.g.?

50Plus would probably be willing to cooperate with the PVV, yes. Their leadership doesn't have any real views, just a hardon for power. They will do whatever is needed to win votes, and a coalition with the PVV may be a successful way to do so as such a government would give freebies to the elderly anyway. However, a coalition including both CU and PVV is very much impossible. The CU are very much anti-Wilders. They were opposed to the inclusion of the PVV in the Rutte-I government and their left-wing views on issues such as immigration, asylum and the environment really don't match the PVV's approach. And, of course, Mark Rutte has -- for now... -- closed the door to cooperation with the PVV too.

Thank you, always astonishing that These hard-core Christians are doing anything to get their culture abolished and destroyed.

[Klartext89]

As I expected, the VVD has today reached a new stage in its campaign by moving to the right and talking tough after excluding the PVV. In a "letter to the Dutch people", widely published today, Mark Rutte states that "something is going on with our country" and denounces "those who came to our country for our freedom yet now abuse those freedoms", "people who don't want to adapt to our society and dismiss our traditions and values, "I understand very well that many people think: if you dismiss our country in such a fundamental way, I'd prefer you leave. That's how I feel too. Either behave yourself or leave." This is a recurring theme on the Dutch center right and reminiscent of Balkenende's talk on "norms and values" which went over very well among generic right-wingers in the suburbs. The cynic in me also notes that this is not and will never be tied to actual policies: Rutte is merely selling feelings. At the same time he also denounces "those who want to divide our society" (=Wilders) and ends his letter with stating that despite everything, he wouldn't want to live anywhere else. "Would you?"

Rutte seeks to present himself as a tough-talking PM who "tells it like it is" yet at the same time as a Prime Ministerial, responsible leader who denounces everything that can be seen as divisive. It remains to be seen whether this strategy will work, but my gut feeling says it just may. At the same time, Buma/Pechtold will attack him on the continuation of the "piss off" theme (which he said in a tv show in October referring to immigrant youth harassing people) and Wilders will attack him on the fact that he doesn't actually propose anything to make people "piss off" and that his statements are not tied to actual proposals for policies. Opinion polls show that people view Rutte as the "lesser evil" and prefer him as PM over most other party leaders, yet at the same time do not believe him: he has a real credibility problem. Still, the VVD's campaign seems to be improving.

Also astonishing that these just talk no action policy of the European center-right parties are working so well in election campaigns... Just like John McCain: campaigning like a Conservative, governing like a Liberal.

Amazing stuff: "We're talking like PVV, and yeah they are right in basically every case, but we want to work with the left parties who disagree with everything we just said" lmao

[ApatheticAustrian]

wilders is responsible for the bad image he has got as an ally.

he burned those bridges with conservative and right-wing parties himself.

[DavidB.]

wilders is responsible for the bad image he has got as an ally.

he burned those bridges with conservative and right-wing parties himself.

I'm not really interested in this discussion, but know that this is not a clear-cut fact; it is highly debatable. I personally think it is partly true but much more nuanced, with the CDA also sharing a big part of the blame.

[Grand Wizard Lizard of the Klan]

David I probably asked that questions already but what is the approach of SGP or CU on Catholic voters if there are any?

[Zinneke]

wilders is responsible for the bad image he has got as an ally.

he burned those bridges with conservative and right-wing parties himself.

I'm not really interested in this discussion, but know that this is not a clear-cut fact; it is highly debatable. I personally think it is partly true but much more nuanced, with the CDA also sharing a big part of the blame.

Yes, the CDA do deserve blame for letting the clown out of the box in the first place.

How are they responsible for the fall of Rutte I though?

[Klartext89]

wilders is responsible for the bad image he has got as an ally.

he burned those bridges with conservative and right-wing parties himself.

Big mistake to leave the coalition in 2012, no question.

[MaxQue]

Is 50plus (the Partys leadership, not the electorate) closer to the Right (anti-EU, EU-sceptical, against Islam, against mass immigration) or the Left (pro-EU, against own country and People, pro mass immigration, loving Islam)?

In other words, despite rhetoric in the election campaign, is it possible to form a government with PVV, VVD, 50plus, CU e.g.?

50Plus would probably be willing to cooperate with the PVV, yes. Their leadership doesn't have any real views, just a hardon for power. They will do whatever is needed to win votes, and a coalition with the PVV may be a successful way to do so as such a government would give freebies to the elderly anyway. However, a coalition including both CU and PVV is very much impossible. The CU are very much anti-Wilders. They were opposed to the inclusion of the PVV in the Rutte-I government and their left-wing views on issues such as immigration, asylum and the environment really don't match the PVV's approach. And, of course, Mark Rutte has -- for now... -- closed the door to cooperation with the PVV too.

Thank you, always astonishing that These hard-core Christians are doing anything to get their culture abolished and destroyed.

Not really, they have more in common with hardcore Muslims than they do with secular atheists.

[DavidB.]

How are they responsible for the fall of Rutte I though?

In a reconstruction of the events that unfolded before and during the failed Catshuisoverleg/"tussenformatie", de Volkskrant concluded that Deputy Prime Minister Maxime Verhagen (CDA) had made promises to Geert Wilders that he couldn't keep because of opposition from his party. And it was clear Immigration Minister Leers (CDA) did anything he could in order not to follow through on the promises in the coalition agreement. Not surprising that the PVV, which obviously mostly wanted to see results on issues such as immigration, felt betrayed. Of course it was still a stupid decision for the PVV to terminate its support for the government, but the CDA's incessant push against delivering on promises that had already been made to the PVV and fully accepted by the VVD played a big role in the eventual collapse of the coalition.

[Klartext89]

Is 50plus (the Partys leadership, not the electorate) closer to the Right (anti-EU, EU-sceptical, against Islam, against mass immigration) or the Left (pro-EU, against own country and People, pro mass immigration, loving Islam)?

In other words, despite rhetoric in the election campaign, is it possible to form a government with PVV, VVD, 50plus, CU e.g.?

50Plus would probably be willing to cooperate with the PVV, yes. Their leadership doesn't have any real views, just a hardon for power. They will do whatever is needed to win votes, and a coalition with the PVV may be a successful way to do so as such a government would give freebies to the elderly anyway. However, a coalition including both CU and PVV is very much impossible. The CU are very much anti-Wilders. They were opposed to the inclusion of the PVV in the Rutte-I government and their left-wing views on issues such as immigration, asylum and the environment really don't match the PVV's approach. And, of course, Mark Rutte has -- for now... -- closed the door to cooperation with the PVV too.

Thank you, always astonishing that These hard-core Christians are doing anything to get their culture abolished and destroyed.

Not really, they have more in common with hardcore Muslims than they do with secular atheists.

Some are thinking that, yeah. But I think that's a myth, cause hardcore Muslims don't allow any other form of religion beside Islam.

[DavidB.]

Not really, they have more in common with hardcore Muslims than they do with secular atheists.

Sewer-tier analysis. CU's type of Protestantism is simply very much influenced by values of tolerance etc and has very little in common with "hardcore Muslims."

[DavidB.]

Meanwhile, the VVD is in trouble once again due to the person who is generally considered "the weakest link" in the government, Security & Justice Minister Ard van der Steur (VVD). The timing is probably no coincidence, but a renowned investigative journalist found out that as an MP, Van der Steur had advised then Minister Ivo Opstelten (who had to resign because of this) to not inform parliament about certain facts in a controversial deal with a drugs criminal in which the amount of money that was given to the criminal had been downplayed. Van der Steur, Opstelten's successor, then told parliament an entirely different version of events about his role in this affair. There have been countless incidents with Van der Steur already (often related to this deal), and the PvdA has now threatened to stop supporting Van der Steur, which would cause him to resign in the last two months of the government. D66 even threatened to introduce a motion of no confidence against the entire government, which should be seen as posturing before the election.

This entire affair is extremely embarrassing for the VVD because it has thoroughly undermined the party's credibility as a "law and order" party, which was very important in attracting VVD-PVV swing voters in the 2012 election. As Rutte once again seeks to present himself as someone who "tells it like it is" and attract those swing voters, any more attention for this affair is the last thing he needs.

[DavidB.]

David I probably asked that questions already but what is the approach of SGP or CU on Catholic voters if there are any?

Forgot about this, sorry. Let's first emphasize that the percentage of Catholics that take into account their Catholicism when voting is relatively small. Those who do take into account their Catholicism can generally be assumed to either be more devout/conservative and/or care about abortion. Both the SGP and -- to a smaller extent -- the CU's predecessors have quite an anti-Catholic history, and remnants of that past can still be found in the parties' "mission statements" (though CU intend to change these parts), but both parties have become more open to Catholics in recent years -- CU more so than SGP because that party explicitly intends to be a union of [all] Christians. Some conservative Catholics vote for the CU and some vote for the SGP. The latter's open anti-Catholicism long prevented this, but this has changed under Van der Staaij, and whereas CU is not a natural fit for conservative Catholics because of its "SJW" tendencies on issues like immigration, the SGP fits this type of voter's views much better (in addition to being the most vocal party on abortion). The parties don't actually target Catholics (not that "targeting" like this is common in the Netherlands anyway), but they absolutely don't talk negatively about Catholicism anymore and ties between CU and Catholic institutions have improved markedly.

But keep in mind that conservative Catholics are an incredibly small and at this point irrelevant electorate, a bit like Jews. Most Catholics in the Netherlands are either cultural Catholics or devout, but not too conservative politically.

At this point I suspect most conservative Catholics still vote for CU or CDA with some moving toward the SGP, but I don't know for sure, since we're talking about a very small number of people. A friend of mine is a Catholic priest and usually votes CU, but intends to vote for the SGP in March.

[Grand Wizard Lizard of the Klan]

Thank you for the answer.

[DavidB.]

Debate on Van der Steur's political future happening now.

[DavidB.]

Watching the debate. Van der Steur clearly bullsh*tting and still very arrogant, angering MPs once again. Question is whether PvdA will support him: will it help them electorally or hurt them? Entire opposition may vote against VdS and for motion of no confidence, though perhaps the SGP could save him too.

[DavidB.]

Aaaaaand he's gone... despite the fact that Rutte continued to support him. The debate was beyond embarrassing. As an MP, Van der Steur had advised Opstelten on his letter that he would send to parliament. The investigative journalist had found that Van der Steur's comment "very sensitive!" had prompted Opstelten to leave certain facts out of the letter. Van der Steur sought to convince parliament that with "very sensitive" he had actually meant Opstelten should have published it but had to realize the political consequences, but to no avail: the opposition kept insisting on the much more plausible explanation that Van der Steur had advised Opstelten to leave those facts out altogether. This will hurt the VVD in times where this is the last thing they need.

[DavidB.]

As a consequence of authorities waking up to the fact that Berlin Christmas Market terrorist Amri could roam around throughout Europe without anyone knowing where he was, the Netherlands, Belgium, the UK and France have now decided that ID/passport checks will take place on certain international trains crossing these countries -- mainly the Eurostar/Thalys. Belgian minister Jan Jambon (N-VA) took the initiative for this measure, which I consider to be long overdue.

[DavidB.]

Since free money is always popular, D66 leader Pechtold has now promised 500 euros to every working Dutch citizen. This is pretty lol because it resembles one of Rutte's broken promises everybody still remembers, in which he guaranteed working Dutch people would receive 1,000 euros if he were to be elected. Last year, Rutte publicly apologized for breaking that promise. In 2012, Pechtold dismissed Rutte's claim as populist and not credible, but apparently those objections don't count anymore.

Pechtold also seeks to cut taxes by lowering the second (40.8%) and fourth (52.0%) personal income tax brackets: "families who earn somewhat more than average form the backbone of our society", Pechtold stated, clearly looking to win over D66-VVD swing voters. I'm sure Jesse Klaver doesn't mind: D66 may have much more to lose (to GL) than to win (from the VVD) by doing so. I'm not at all convinced this is a successful strategy. D66 members I am acquainted with are not pleased.

[mvd10]

Most D66 members are to the left of their leadership. Last year a couple of local D66 politicians wanted D66 to become more left-wing and focus on inequality instead of economic reforms. Jan Terlouw (former D66 leader) even criticized neoliberalism.

The most hilarious thing about Pechtold's tax plan is that Pechtold criticized the VVD/PvdA tax cut in 2015 because it was a "dumb'' tax cut that wouldn't increase employment and increase the debt while I fail to see how his tax plan is any different.

[DavidB.]

Most D66 members are to the left of their leadership. Last year a couple of local D66 politicians wanted D66 to become more left-wing and focus on inequality instead of economic reforms. Jan Terlouw (former D66 leader) even criticized neoliberalism.

True, and the same goes for many of their voters. A similar case was when MEP Marietje Schaake, a staunch TTIP supporter, stopped talking about the agreement and didn't want to answer any questions about it anymore because it was so unpopular with their base.

The most hilarious thing about Pechtold's tax plan is that Pechtold criticized the VVD/PvdA tax cut in 2015 because it was a "dumb'' tax cut that wouldn't increase employment and increase the debt while I fail to see how his tax plan is any different.

Yeah, it's exactly the same, lol.

[DC Al Fine]

That raises an interesting question. What are the parties with the biggest and smallest differences between the leadership and the rank and file support?