Politics and Elections in the Netherlands: coalition agreement presented

[DavidB.]

Oh, you're right, had missed that. Roemer vs. Asscher and Rutte vs. Klaver will surely be spectacular. Pretty funny that Asscher declined to engage in a debate with Roemer and Klaver and he's now going to debate Roemer anyway. Wilders vs. Segers may benefit Wilders if Segers starts talking about immigration, but could also be risky. Buma and Pechtold can't be too happy about their draws.

I'm still baffled Asscher's ego was big enough to try and become leader at this point. There's just no way this will end well for him, and everybody knew this. Not good for the PvdA either.

[Zinneke]

How did CU get in the adult debate but SGP and PvdD did not?

[DavidB.]

How did CU get in the adult debate but SGP and PvdD did not?

More seats in parliament, more seats in the polls. I also think 50Plus would get into the adult debate before either of SGP and PvdD because of the polls. Thank G-d that didn't happen.

[jeron]

How did CU get in the adult debate but SGP and PvdD did not?

More seats in parliament, more seats in the polls. I also think 50Plus would get into the adult debate before either of SGP and PvdD because of the polls. Thank G-d that didn't happen.

I am no fan of 50plus either but for the last couple of months 50plus has been consistently higher in the polls than CU. so, according to the polls 50plus should have been in the adult debate.

[Zinneke]

How did CU get in the adult debate but SGP and PvdD did not?

More seats in parliament, more seats in the polls. I also think 50Plus would get into the adult debate before either of SGP and PvdD because of the polls. Thank G-d that didn't happen.

I am no fan of 50plus either but for the last couple of months 50plus has been consistently higher in the polls than CU. so, according to the polls 50plus should have been in the adult debate.

I imagine the main difference is that CU do not campaign on single issues, unlike 50+.

If the format is like the provincials then the attacking party who is selected first get to choose which issue is discussed in the debate vs the "defending" party. Then the second rounds allow the ones who defended to pick their issue.

With 50+, PvdD and even to an extent the SGP and Denk, this format doesn't work.

[SunSt0rm]

How did CU get in the adult debate but SGP and PvdD did not?

More seats in parliament, more seats in the polls. I also think 50Plus would get into the adult debate before either of SGP and PvdD because of the polls. Thank G-d that didn't happen.

I am no fan of 50plus either but for the last couple of months 50plus has been consistently higher in the polls than CU. so, according to the polls 50plus should have been in the adult debate.

The criteria are current seats + average seats in the polls. 50+ only has 1 seat not and is currently polling about 9 seats making 10 seats, while CU has 5 seats and in the polls it will have 6 seats so they will have 11 seats, more than 50+

[DC Al Fine]

When I go onto the English wiki for Dutch opinion polls, each poll has 1-4 seats going to "Other". When I go on the Dutch version, it has DENK, Pirates and what appears to be two PPV-alternative parties winning between 0-2 seats each dependingo on the poll. What are these parties' chances of getting into parliament?

[mvd10]

When I go onto the English wiki for Dutch opinion polls, each poll has 1-4 seats going to "Other". When I go on the Dutch version, it has DENK, Pirates and what appears to be two PPV-alternative parties winning between 0-2 seats each dependingo on the poll. What are these parties' chances of getting into parliament?

DENK probably has the best chance. But pretty much all of their voters are muslims (especially muslims with a Turkish background) and they are very hard to poll. I don't think VNL and FvD are going to make it. In the past there have been similar small right-wing parties and they never made it into parliament, so it's probably not going to happen, especially now the right-wing vote will be split between FvD and VNL. And I don't think there is much space for more right-wing parties. Leaving the EU will probably scare away VVD voters while their libertarian economic platform (flat taxes and stuff like that) will scare away PVV voters. I don't know anything about the pirate party tbh.

[SunSt0rm]

When I go onto the English wiki for Dutch opinion polls, each poll has 1-4 seats going to "Other". When I go on the Dutch version, it has DENK, Pirates and what appears to be two PPV-alternative parties winning between 0-2 seats each dependingo on the poll. What are these parties' chances of getting into parliament?

Denk has a decent chanchee getting at least one seat. Pirate not. VNL and FvD probably small to get in, if they would have merged, maybe they would have a chance

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

Here's a thought: would PVV be doing better or worse if it had the same issues etc but was led by a more bland-Hofer like individual than the divisive Wilders? (Ignoring of course that a PVV without Wilders wouldn't actually be the PVV)

[Angel of Death]

Here's a thought: would PVV be doing better or worse if it had the same issues etc but was led by a more bland-Hofer like individual than the divisive Wilders? (Ignoring of course that a PVV without Wilders wouldn't actually be the PVV)

No, because the party would look too similar to the VVD then.

[mvd10]

I agree with others here that DENK are probably getting in; VNL and FVD are the only other ones who have a remotely realistic shot of getting in, but that's probably not happening anyway.

I wrote this for another, slightly less serious website on the parties that are on the ballot yet weren't elected in 2012. Don't shoot.

12. Ondernemerspartij: if you're not yet sick and tired of former PVV MP and known alcoholic troublemaker Hero Brinkman ("Drinkman"), who now pretends to stand up for small businesses' interests. Electoral potential: 0
13. VNL: if you agree with Wilders but don't think he has the best words -- a drunk like Jan Roos is obviously more sensitive -- and also want tax cuts. Electoral potential: 35% chance they get in.
14. DENK: if you think Erdogan is actually p cool. Electoral potential: 90% chance they get in.
15. NIEUWE WEGEN: if you're a social democrat fed up with the PvdA who wants less EU and, as opposed to the SP, less immigration, but you don't like Wilders for some reason. Electoral potential: <5% they get in.
16. Forum voor Democratie: if you're highly educated and like your party leader to lie on a piano and pretend his party is the new D66 while it's really a cheap copy of the PVV (but pro-Putin and pro-MRA). Electoral potential: 25% chance they get in.
17. De Burger Beweging: if you don't like the financial system but you also can't write proper Dutch. Electoral potential: 0
18. Vrijzinnige Partij: if you want a universal basic income and you think someone who split off from 50Plus is the man. Electoral potential: 0.
19. GeenPeil: if you think it's a good idea if MPs just vote on the basis of random open internet polls -- what could possibly go wrong? Electoral potential: <5% they get in.
20. Piratenpartij: if you think privacy is cool, or if you just think parliament would look better with a fetish model in it. Electoral potential: <5%.
21. Artikel1: if intersectional feminism is really your thing. Electoral potential: <5%.
22. Niet Stemmers: if you're a non-voter but you're voting anyway? Electoral potential: 0 (come on, their voters aren't voting...).
23: Libertarische Partij: if you think this country should become much more FISCALLY CONSERVATIVE BUT SOCIALLY LIBERAL. Also my first electoral love; 2012 parliamentary election, never forget Electoral potential: 0 (they even lost me lmao)
24: Lokaal in de Kamer: if you're a local, probably corrupt politician and you figure national politicians are spectacularly unpopular so why not try? Electoral potential: 0.
25. JEZUS LEEFT: if you think Jesus is alive? Electoral potential: 0.
26. StemNL: if you want to vote on issues instead of for parties and candidates. Electoral potential: 0.
27. MenS and Spirit/Basisinkomen/Blah blah blah: if you think homeopathy works, we should work on our chakras more, vaccines may not work, etc. Electoral potential: 0.
28. VDP: if you're a Turk, hate Jews and gays, and think DENK are cucks for even pretending to be inclusive. Electoral potential: 0 (thank f**k)

Not on the ballot this time and sorely missed are SOPN (anti-chemtrail party; still got more votes than the LP in 2012...), IQ Partij (openly racist party by a guy with an insane German accent who thinks Ashkenazi Jews are dangerous) and the LibDems (someone who has too much money but is antisemitic too).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sX5kJdwZ164

I'll never forget this.

[DavidB.]

Haha, yeah, die witte menschen en die broine menschen Still pretty bizarre this video was broadcasted on tv, but I guess it's the price we pay for being an inclusive democracy. We won't get anything like that from the VDP, because I think you need to be on the ballot in all electoral districts to be allotted airtime on tv; list 17 and onward are not.

On another note, pretty embarrassing GeenPeil managed to get over 450,000 signatures for their referendum but didn't manage to get on the ballot everywhere (though I think they only missed out on the 10 signatures from Bonaire).

[Zinneke]

Here's a thought: would PVV be doing better or worse if it had the same issues etc but was led by a more bland-Hofer like individual than the divisive Wilders? (Ignoring of course that a PVV without Wilders wouldn't actually be the PVV)

Wilders is what keeps the party in the headlines. They have no other party structure or strategy that doesn't revolve around Geert Wilders.

Another party has already done better than Geertje without his antics : LPF. Another 1 man show, only the 1 man was considered smarter and more diplomatic than Wilders. Whatever legacy he'd have left, would be leading by 10 seats more.

[DC Al Fine]

I agree with others here that DENK are probably getting in; VNL and FVD are the only other ones who have a remotely realistic shot of getting in, but that's probably not happening anyway.

I wrote this for another, slightly less serious website on the parties that are on the ballot yet weren't elected in 2012. Don't shoot.

12. Ondernemerspartij: if you're not yet sick and tired of former PVV MP and known alcoholic troublemaker Hero Brinkman ("Drinkman"), who now pretends to stand up for small businesses' interests. Electoral potential: 0
13. VNL: if you agree with Wilders but don't think he has the best words -- a drunk like Jan Roos is obviously more sensitive -- and also want tax cuts. Electoral potential: 35% chance they get in.
14. DENK: if you think Erdogan is actually p cool. Electoral potential: 90% chance they get in.
15. NIEUWE WEGEN: if you're a social democrat fed up with the PvdA who wants less EU and, as opposed to the SP, less immigration, but you don't like Wilders for some reason. Electoral potential: <5% they get in.
16. Forum voor Democratie: if you're highly educated and like your party leader to lie on a piano and pretend his party is the new D66 while it's really a cheap copy of the PVV (but pro-Putin and pro-MRA). Electoral potential: 25% chance they get in.
17. De Burger Beweging: if you don't like the financial system but you also can't write proper Dutch. Electoral potential: 0
18. Vrijzinnige Partij: if you want a universal basic income and you think someone who split off from 50Plus is the man. Electoral potential: 0.
19. GeenPeil: if you think it's a good idea if MPs just vote on the basis of random open internet polls -- what could possibly go wrong? Electoral potential: <5% they get in.
20. Piratenpartij: if you think privacy is cool, or if you just think parliament would look better with a fetish model in it. Electoral potential: <5%.
21. Artikel1: if intersectional feminism is really your thing. Electoral potential: <5%.
22. Niet Stemmers: if you're a non-voter but you're voting anyway? Electoral potential: 0 (come on, their voters aren't voting...).
23: Libertarische Partij: if you think this country should become much more FISCALLY CONSERVATIVE BUT SOCIALLY LIBERAL. Also my first electoral love; 2012 parliamentary election, never forget Electoral potential: 0 (they even lost me lmao)
24: Lokaal in de Kamer: if you're a local, probably corrupt politician and you figure national politicians are spectacularly unpopular so why not try? Electoral potential: 0.
25. JEZUS LEEFT: if you think Jesus is alive? Electoral potential: 0.
26. StemNL: if you want to vote on issues instead of for parties and candidates. Electoral potential: 0.
27. MenS and Spirit/Basisinkomen/Blah blah blah: if you think homeopathy works, we should work on our chakras more, vaccines may not work, etc. Electoral potential: 0.
28. VDP: if you're a Turk, hate Jews and gays, and think DENK are cucks for even pretending to be inclusive. Electoral potential: 0 (thank f**k)

Not on the ballot this time and sorely missed are SOPN (anti-chemtrail party; still got more votes than the LP in 2012...), IQ Partij (openly racist party by a guy with an insane German accent who thinks Ashkenazi Jews are dangerous) and the LibDems (someone who has too much money but is antisemitic too).

I love how the Netherlands has PR with no threshold and they still have more fringe parties than most Western countries.

[Zinneke]

I agree with others here that DENK are probably getting in; VNL and FVD are the only other ones who have a remotely realistic shot of getting in, but that's probably not happening anyway.

I wrote this for another, slightly less serious website on the parties that are on the ballot yet weren't elected in 2012. Don't shoot.

12. Ondernemerspartij: if you're not yet sick and tired of former PVV MP and known alcoholic troublemaker Hero Brinkman ("Drinkman"), who now pretends to stand up for small businesses' interests. Electoral potential: 0
13. VNL: if you agree with Wilders but don't think he has the best words -- a drunk like Jan Roos is obviously more sensitive -- and also want tax cuts. Electoral potential: 35% chance they get in.
14. DENK: if you think Erdogan is actually p cool. Electoral potential: 90% chance they get in.
15. NIEUWE WEGEN: if you're a social democrat fed up with the PvdA who wants less EU and, as opposed to the SP, less immigration, but you don't like Wilders for some reason. Electoral potential: <5% they get in.
16. Forum voor Democratie: if you're highly educated and like your party leader to lie on a piano and pretend his party is the new D66 while it's really a cheap copy of the PVV (but pro-Putin and pro-MRA). Electoral potential: 25% chance they get in.
17. De Burger Beweging: if you don't like the financial system but you also can't write proper Dutch. Electoral potential: 0
18. Vrijzinnige Partij: if you want a universal basic income and you think someone who split off from 50Plus is the man. Electoral potential: 0.
19. GeenPeil: if you think it's a good idea if MPs just vote on the basis of random open internet polls -- what could possibly go wrong? Electoral potential: <5% they get in.
20. Piratenpartij: if you think privacy is cool, or if you just think parliament would look better with a fetish model in it. Electoral potential: <5%.
21. Artikel1: if intersectional feminism is really your thing. Electoral potential: <5%.
22. Niet Stemmers: if you're a non-voter but you're voting anyway? Electoral potential: 0 (come on, their voters aren't voting...).
23: Libertarische Partij: if you think this country should become much more FISCALLY CONSERVATIVE BUT SOCIALLY LIBERAL. Also my first electoral love; 2012 parliamentary election, never forget Electoral potential: 0 (they even lost me lmao)
24: Lokaal in de Kamer: if you're a local, probably corrupt politician and you figure national politicians are spectacularly unpopular so why not try? Electoral potential: 0.
25. JEZUS LEEFT: if you think Jesus is alive? Electoral potential: 0.
26. StemNL: if you want to vote on issues instead of for parties and candidates. Electoral potential: 0.
27. MenS and Spirit/Basisinkomen/Blah blah blah: if you think homeopathy works, we should work on our chakras more, vaccines may not work, etc. Electoral potential: 0.
28. VDP: if you're a Turk, hate Jews and gays, and think DENK are cucks for even pretending to be inclusive. Electoral potential: 0 (thank f**k)

Not on the ballot this time and sorely missed are SOPN (anti-chemtrail party; still got more votes than the LP in 2012...), IQ Partij (openly racist party by a guy with an insane German accent who thinks Ashkenazi Jews are dangerous) and the LibDems (someone who has too much money but is antisemitic too).

I love how the Netherlands has PR with no threshold and they still have more fringe parties than most Western countries.

The whole point is that any man and his dog can found a party and lead it to be the largest in the NL. Because there is PR with no threshold. See my post above and the LPF.

[DavidB.]

Pim Fortuyn was hardly "every man and his dog".

[Zinneke]

Pim Fortuyn was hardly "every man and his dog".

Dutch intelligentsia is full of Fortuyns.

That;s besides the point. He inspired all the egomaniacs in Holland (i.e a lot) that they could set up their party and achieve power. Maybe get shot in the process.

[DavidB.]

I fear you're getting ahead of yourself in your barely concealed dislike of the Netherlands. The number of parties on the ballot in Dutch elections hasn't significantly increased since 2002.

[Zinneke]

I fear you're getting ahead of yourself in your barely concealed dislike of the Netherlands.

Holland =/= Netherlands, believe it or not

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a) they have, 81 parties on the ballot this time round
b) The pillar system has been totally undone, first by the D66-VVD wave, then the LPF wave. Compared to Belgium there is much more party competition.

[DavidB.]

No, it is not true that there are 81 parties on the ballot. Again, you're misinformed but think you're informed, which seems to be a recurring pattern. 81 parties registered themselves with the Electoral Council, but only 28 of them have managed to meet the criteria to get on the ballot, which, while a lot, is the same number as in 1971 and 1981.

Depillarization and secularization obviously caused many voters to actually start choosing between parties, and volatility in the Netherlands is higher than in most if not all other Western European countries. I am not rebuking the claim that there is more party competition (however defined) in the Netherlands than in Belgium. I am rebuking the idea that there are more egomaniacs interested in power in the Netherlands than in other countries, and I am rebuking the claim that every idiot can lead their party to become an influential force in Dutch parliament. It is undoubtedly true that the Dutch electoral system causes crazies to think they can get in, but none of the real kooks actually do get in. Unless, of course, you want to argue the PVV and the like are not serious parties, in which case I guess we should move this thread to Individual Politics. And even if you think Baudet and Roos are non-serious (I won't dispute the idea that they are narcissists; they are), which I don't even if I'd find them to be redundant actors if elected, their participation in the election is hardly unparallelled outside the Netherlands; roughly similar parties exist in different national contexts.

I am interested in this debate about the Dutch electoral system, its merits and its disadvantages, but only if we take it to a somewhat higher level, actually start comparing it to other countries' systems and stop the boring bickering about "those egomaniacs from Holland", which I find to be a waste of time. Might as well go to the pub for that.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

Actually, I'm surprised there are no Trots or other such Anticapitalist True Left types that believe SP are New Left sellouts. (This is where Greece, with its chaotic crew of squabbling subthreshold far-leftists, really shines)

[DavidB.]

Actually, I'm surprised there are no Trots or other such Anticapitalist True Left types that believe SP are New Left sellouts. (This is where Greece, with its chaotic crew of squabbling subthreshold far-leftists, really shines)

Trots op Nederland tried again (but didn't agree with paying 11,250 euros and are now going to court), but I guess that's not exactly what you were going for... But yeah, the Dutch far left is in shambles. The same is true for everything to the right of the PVV, the people who think Wilders is a Zionist sellout of the Aryan Dutch people or whatever. No neo-Nazis on the ballot, thankfully.

[freek]

Participating parties (by list number)

1 VVD
2 PvdA
3 PVV
4 SP
5 CDA
6 D66
7 ChristenUnie
8 GroenLinks
9 SGP
10 PvdD
11 50PLUS

new parties:



Numbers above the columns are electoral districts ('kieskring'). x means a party is participating in this district. Parties 1 - 11 participate in every district by default.
Most provinces are coterminous with 1 district. Provinces of Gelderland, Noord-Brabant, Noord-Holland and Zuid-Holland are subdivided. Amsterdam = 9, The Hague = 12, Rotterdam = 13. The Caribbean islands of Bonaire, Saba and Sint Eustatius are district 20.

Map:

[Zinneke]

No, it is not true that there are 81 parties on the ballot. Again, you're misinformed but think you're informed, which seems to be a recurring pattern. 81 parties registered themselves with the Electoral Council, but only 28 of them have managed to meet the criteria to get on the ballot, which, while a lot, is the same number as in 1971 and 1981.

Granted, but it doesn't change my point that 81 parties are at least seeking to be elected to parliament, which a lot compared to other countries, which was the query (how come the Netherlands have so many parties given the low electoral threshold - the question answers itself). And yet, i contend the LPF had a massive effect as to what these usually local movements (his was the Leefbaar movement) could achieve.

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that's my main point, and I don't think that is a negative thing.

I am not saying that there a more egomaniacs in the Netherlands, I mentioned Holland, which I think gets an equal amount of chauvinistic banter from both the Belgians and our occupied provinces in Southern Netherlands. And even then I wasn't being serious, and I think most people can recognise this. You can take these jokes personally if you want.

I don't hate the Netherlands. I actually think 1830 can be interpreted retrospectively as a strategic mistake if a necessary one at the time due to under-representation. I also think we should co-operate with it more on a lot of issues, but that's not important for this thread

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The PVV is not a serious party, when its executive is quite literally composed of only an egomaniac and his own registered company. I think a party that had as its name the ''List <Party Name Leader>'', and broke up once he sadly disapeared from the scene, can be considered an egomaniac's project too.  

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I find it hilarious that a person who will be voting for the PVV and cheerleads Trump to bulldoze palestinian homes is going to lecture me on political correctness.

I love the Dutch electoral system, and the crazies its produced btw. Would take it here for the federal level in a heartbeat. We've only really had people like Dedecker to compete.