Politics and Elections in the Netherlands: coalition agreement presented

[Dutch Conservative]

The new informateur Herman Tjeenk Willink has been much more blunt than Schippers: instead of carefully grouping together politicians who may eventually agree, Tjeenk Willink has outlined the problems that, according to him, need to be solved most urgently: first the climate ("to prevent natural catastrophes"), second growing inequality ("not only about income figures, but also about recognition for your work and living in dignity"), and third immigration ("if we don't choose, Merkel and Macron will choose for us"). Media are acting as if he's being independent but I do get the impression that his personal views shine through here, but perhaps this approach works better than Schippers'. Tjeenk Willink's idea is to talk policy without negotiating and, on the way, find ways to bridge the differences. He will do so with VVD, CDA, D66, GL and CU. By doing so, the most viable combination of parties should be found and these parties would then start negotiating on a deal with another informateur.

This is why people hate politics. Some fossil of the PvdA is now telling us which choices should be made. I thought that's why we had elections? When a VVD-CDA-D66-GL/CU cabinet with a PvdA informateur is a real possibility, I think we can call this a 'crisis of our democracy'.

[DavidB.]

I understand what you mean. I thought Tjeenk Willink was a good choice, but I'm less than happy now that it seems as if he's structuring the formation on the basis of what he thinks are policy priorities. His prioritization is highly subjective: for instance, most VVD voters would not say the climate is the biggest political problem right now. Like everybody else, Tjeenk Willink has a right to hold his own opinions, but he has no democratic mandate to impose them on the politicians at the negotiating table, and to me, him being explicit about his preferences makes his PvdA membership more of an issue too. I guess my main fears are that the coalition with GL happens anyway and that GL and D66 are put at an undue advantage against VVD and CDA. But I'm cautious in judging him, because it is clear that Schippers' approach didn't work and we need something new. I also think Rutte and Buma are perfectly capable of saying no when they don't agree with a proposal.

[Dutch Conservative]

His prioritization is highly subjective: for instance, most VVD voters would not say the climate is the biggest political problem right now. Like everybody else, Tjeenk Willink has a right to hold his own opinions, but he has no democratic mandate to impose them on the politicians at the negotiating table, and to me, him being explicit about his preferences makes his PvdA membership more of an issue too.

I totally agree with this. The only mandate he has is his assignment of the parliament. Him speaking about income inequality as a priority is a really partisan stand. He should be a neutral mediator.

But I'm cautious in judging him, because it is clear that Schippers' approach didn't work and we need something new.

How about: new elections? I know it probably won't solve anything, but at some point it has to be considered, just to stay trustworthy as a system. Maybe a bit too early now.

I also think Rutte and Buma are perfectly capable of saying no when they don't agree with a proposal.

I trust Buma more in this than Rutte.

[DavidB.]

I trust Buma more in this than Rutte.

Yeah, I agree. My opinion of him has only gone up ever since the campaign started. I don't always agree with him, but at least I know where we're going to disagree. At least he's sincere and seems to value honesty. Rutte will say and do anything to get what he wants.

Don't think there should be a new election. It is up to politicians to deal with the result. It is not as if we made a mistake.

[Tintrlvr]

Might a five-party VVD-CDA-D66-GL-CU coalition be a reasonable solution to a lot of the issues that are plaguing formation? Such a coalition would be less clearly on the economic right, containing two economically left-wing parties along with the more centrist D66, and that would allow D66 to accept the loss of parts of its socially progressive agenda because it would not be forced to accept other right-wing policies if GL and CU are both in government also and would have cover to their left. Would require VVD to cave on the environmental issues that ultimately sunk the agreement with GL, though, since CU would obviously side with GL there, but it's not clear that that would not be an issue with CU alone also. And I know they don't need both GL and CU in order to have a majority, but it seems like, given the inevitable ideological fractiousness of any government, it would be better to have a government that can survive some dissension (whereas VVD-CDA-D66-CU couldn't).

[DavidB.]

Might a five-party VVD-CDA-D66-GL-CU coalition be a reasonable solution to a lot of the issues that are plaguing formation? Such a coalition would be less clearly on the economic right, containing two economically left-wing parties along with the more centrist D66, and that would allow D66 to accept the loss of parts of its socially progressive agenda because it would not be forced to accept other right-wing policies if GL and CU are both in government also and would have cover to their left. Would require VVD to cave on the environmental issues that ultimately sunk the agreement with GL, though, since CU would obviously side with GL there, but it's not clear that that would not be an issue with CU alone also. And I know they don't need both GL and CU in order to have a majority, but it seems like, given the inevitable ideological fractiousness of any government, it would be better to have a government that can survive some dissension (whereas VVD-CDA-D66-CU couldn't).

It would certainly be an interesting option that should be taken into consideration. That said, most the difficulties remain. The negotiations between VVD, CDA, D66 and GL were not sunk by green issues but by the differences on migration between VVD/CDA on the one hand and GL on the other hand. What's more, CU would still have to accept that other parties in the government vote for progressive D66 crown jewels. The big divide between CDA and GL on green and agricultural issues remains too.

Given the big differences between parties I think it's unlikely that an oversized coalition will be formed, but it is certainly something an informateur should look into.

[Zinneke]

The new informateur Herman Tjeenk Willink has been much more blunt than Schippers: instead of carefully grouping together politicians who may eventually agree, Tjeenk Willink has outlined the problems that, according to him, need to be solved most urgently: first the climate ("to prevent natural catastrophes"), second growing inequality ("not only about income figures, but also about recognition for your work and living in dignity"), and third immigration ("if we don't choose, Merkel and Macron will choose for us"). Media are acting as if he's being independent but I do get the impression that his personal views shine through here, but perhaps this approach works better than Schippers'. Tjeenk Willink's idea is to talk policy without negotiating and, on the way, find ways to bridge the differences. He will do so with VVD, CDA, D66, GL and CU. By doing so, the most viable combination of parties should be found and these parties would then start negotiating on a deal with another informateur.

This is why people hate politics. Some fossil of the PvdA is now telling us which choices should be made. I thought that's why we had elections? When a VVD-CDA-D66-GL/CU cabinet with a PvdA informateur is a real possibility, I think we can call this a 'crisis of our democracy'.

I imagine there are people who also hate politics because of backroom deals or pre-arranged coalitions. Here is a guy (with a democratic mandate) too old to care about convention. Meanwhile Wilders holds Rutte personally responsible for the Manchester attacks and no word on here.

That said I think Wilders should have symbolically been given informateur status so that he could stop whining in parliament. EDIT : And also brcause he finished 2nd and the trad. parties have forgotten that.

[DavidB.]

Segers says chances of talks on VVD-CDA-D66-CU haven't become larger and would require a "miracle". Meanwhile, the on Atlas much beloved PvdA MP Dijsselbloem said his party will not be part of any government. This basically leaves us with VVD-CDA-D66-GL as the only option with a majority. Painful for VVD and CDA.

[DavidB.]

Rotterdam mayor Ahmed Aboutaleb (PvdA) thinks there should be a center-right government with the PVV. "Voters said: the center-right has to do it. It seems logical that all parties from the center to the right negotiate. The PVV is part of the right, so they will have to find a way to do it with each other. I think that's fair to voters." Aboutaleb also wants a stricter immigration policy and says: "You can only take in refugees to the extent that it is accepted by European citizens. Solidarity does not mean even more uncontrolled migration. Instead of taking in more refugees, we should provide much more development aid. How much are we willing to contribute to improving conditions elsewhere in the world in order to end undesirable types of migration?"He thinks foreigners should have the possibility to apply for jobs in the Netherlands from Dutch embassies abroad.

[Dutch Conservative]

Rotterdam mayor Ahmed Aboutaleb (PvdA) thinks there should be a center-right government with the PVV. "Voters said: the center-right has to do it. It seems logical that all parties from the center to the right negotiate. The PVV is part of the right, so they will have to find a way to do it with each other. I think that's fair to voters." Aboutaleb also wants a stricter immigration policy and says: "You can only take in refugees to the extent that it is accepted by European citizens. Solidarity does not mean even more uncontrolled migration. Instead of taking in more refugees, we should provide much more development aid. How much are we willing to contribute to improving conditions elsewhere in the world in order to end undesirable types of migration?"He thinks foreigners should have the possibility to apply for jobs in the Netherlands from Dutch embassies abroad.

Aboutaleb is one of the few PvdA-members who actually make sense sometimes. I believe he sees the problems in his own city, rather than the PvdA-elite who seem to live in an alternative universe. I doubt Rutte and Buma will ever be in for a PVV-coalition.

[jeron]

Segers says chances of talks on VVD-CDA-D66-CU haven't become larger and would require a "miracle". Meanwhile, the on Atlas much beloved PvdA MP Dijsselbloem said his party will not be part of any government. This basically leaves us with VVD-CDA-D66-GL as the only option with a majority. Painful for VVD and CDA.

The chances for that coalition were small from the start. D66 made clear to VVD and CDA in March that it was not interested in such a coalition. Of course that did not change after the talks with GL failed.

[jeron]

Rotterdam mayor Ahmed Aboutaleb (PvdA) thinks there should be a center-right government with the PVV. "Voters said: the center-right has to do it. It seems logical that all parties from the center to the right negotiate. The PVV is part of the right, so they will have to find a way to do it with each other. I think that's fair to voters." Aboutaleb also wants a stricter immigration policy and says: "You can only take in refugees to the extent that it is accepted by European citizens. Solidarity does not mean even more uncontrolled migration. Instead of taking in more refugees, we should provide much more development aid. How much are we willing to contribute to improving conditions elsewhere in the world in order to end undesirable types of migration?"He thinks foreigners should have the possibility to apply for jobs in the Netherlands from Dutch embassies abroad.

Aboutaleb is one of the few PvdA-members who actually make sense sometimes. I believe he sees the problems in his own city, rather than the PvdA-elite who seem to live in an alternative universe. I doubt Rutte and Buma will ever be in for a PVV-coalition.

I wouldn't be in for a coalition with someone who blamed me for terrorist attacks in the UK

[Pericles]

Will there be another election?

[DavidB.]

Never say never, but I really doubt it, and a new election is likely to produce a similar outcome anyway.

Tjeenk Willink still isn't sure VVD-CDA-D66-GL will work due to the enormous differences on immigration, income inequality and green issues, so more talks are going to follow for him to see if it is worth trying. There have been separate VVD-CDA-D66 talks too in order to undo some of the damage that was done by D66 when they made negotiations with CU impossible.

[SunSt0rm]

The SGP has declared its demand for a possible minority government. It says it will not support such a government in any way when it supports euthanasia, legalize soft drugs and legalizing multieple Parenthood (Dutch: Meerouderschap, dont know how to translate it)

[DavidB.]

In the category "OMFG": 7600 general election votes in the municipality of Boxmeer were not taken into account by the electoral council when calculating the election result. The ballots had been counted, but a mistake was made at the "constituency" (Dutch: kieskring) level in Den Bosch where all the vote totals of the municipality in the constituency were added up (manually, this time, and not by using electronic software): the instructions given by the Ministry of the Interior were not followed. Only votes for the first four parties on the ballot, i.e. VVD, PvdA, PVV and SP, were taken into account.

The final election result cannot be changed anymore, but calculations show that these votes would not have made a difference.

[DavidB.]

Seems like GreenRight are going to give it another go.

[jeron]

Seems like GreenRight are going to give it another go.

No surprise, there has not been a real alternative

[Zinneke]

Seems like GreenRight are going to give it another go.

No surprise, there has not been a real alternative

I imagine they will form it and then when the next international crisis happens it will collapse like a house of cards.

Rutte is the new Balkende.

[DavidB.]

Rutte is the new Balkende.

He very much isn't. He's been much better at maintaining his personal relations with other leaders and cooperating with other parties, and despite everybody expecting Rutte-II to collapse early there were fairly few coalition crises (bed-bad-brood being the only major one). Of course GreenRight -- if it happens, which remains to be seen -- could collapse early, but that's the norm in Dutch politics.

Seems like GreenRight are going to give it another go.

No surprise, there has not been a real alternative

There was, but Pechtold shot it down. Still hoping Rutte and Buma give Pechtold tit for tat and dump Klaver. A minority government would be a much more viable option than a government including CDA, VVD and Wijnand Duyvendak.

[Zinneke]

Rutte is the new Balkende.

He very much isn't. He's been much better at maintaining his personal relations with other leaders and cooperating with other parties, and despite everybody expecting Rutte-II to collapse early there were fairly few coalition crises (bed-bad-brood being the only major one). Of course GreenRight -- if it happens, which remains to be seen -- could collapse early, but that's the norm in Dutch politics.

Fair point - I meant in the sense that he will have to contend with rather sensitive parties that collapse governments for sport. GL will not make a mistake like Kunduz again so any GroenRechts government will not last too long IMO.
[/quote]

[jeron]

Rutte is the new Balkende.

He very much isn't. He's been much better at maintaining his personal relations with other leaders and cooperating with other parties, and despite everybody expecting Rutte-II to collapse early there were fairly few coalition crises (bed-bad-brood being the only major one). Of course GreenRight -- if it happens, which remains to be seen -- could collapse early, but that's the norm in Dutch politics.

Seems like GreenRight are going to give it another go.

No surprise, there has not been a real alternative

There was, but Pechtold shot it down. Still hoping Rutte and Buma give Pechtold tit for tat and dump Klaver. A minority government would be a much more viable option than a government including CDA, VVD and Wijnand Duyvendak.

That's why it was no real alternative, because D66 didn't want it and Pechtold made that clear from the start. Even if there had been coalition talks they would have failed after a couple of weeks.

[jeron]

Rutte is the new Balkende.

He very much isn't. He's been much better at maintaining his personal relations with other leaders and cooperating with other parties, and despite everybody expecting Rutte-II to collapse early there were fairly few coalition crises (bed-bad-brood being the only major one). Of course GreenRight -- if it happens, which remains to be seen -- could collapse early, but that's the norm in Dutch politics.

Fair point - I meant in the sense that he will have to contend with rather sensitive parties that collapse governments for sport. GL will not make a mistake like Kunduz again so any GroenRechts government will not last too long IMO.

[/quote]

The VVD/PvdA coalition was stable because Rutte made sure relations remained good. Balkenende essentially called Bos a liar during the election campaign ('you turn and you are dishonest') and it strained relations for the next 3 years. Balkenende was a weak leader who was never able to keep any coalition together.

[mvd10]

Balkenende wasn't a strong leader but I still think he's underrated. He managed to pass some highly controversial reforms in his second cabinet (2003-2006) and somehow managed to stay on for 8 years even though he originally started out as the CDA's sacrificial lamb in 2002 and nobody ever considered him a strong leader. Balkenende probably was one of the least experienced politicians to ever become Dutch PM. He only was an MP for 4 years when he became PM.

[DC Al Fine]

Balkenende wasn't a strong leader but I still think he's underrated. He managed to pass some highly controversial reforms in his second cabinet (2003-2006) and somehow managed to stay on for 8 years even though he originally started out as the CDA's sacrificial lamb in 2002 and nobody ever considered him a strong leader. Balkenende probably was one of the least experienced politicians to ever become Dutch PM. He only was an MP for 4 years when he became PM.

Why was the CDA picking a sacrificial lamb in 2002? After eight years of purple government, wouldn't CDA be thinking they could retake power?