Provisional Parliament: Voting on Amendment

[Blair]

Didn't even realize I'd been nominated, which shows how active I've been TNF would have had my full support as Speaker, as others said he kick started the game. Thanks to the people who nominated me,its appreciated

I'd be open for Southern America, as it gives us an extremely interesting slant. What are the borders for the south? I wouldn't mind having my consistency in cuba, being the socialist fan boy I am.

On another point, is there any chance we could get our own board for this? I know it would be a hassle for the mods but it could help us to do really well, it's easy to miss/forget about a board if it's hidden away

[HagridOfTheDeep]

I have to chime in and urge the members of this body to consider the long-term implications of a South America scenario. We are trying to build a simulation with longevity. We want a game that will be able to create its own history and run itself with old members cycling out and new members cycling in. This group is the most enthusiastic group of participants we will probably ever have, because we have the wherewithal and dedication to build this game from the ground up. New members will not have the same knowledge base or dedication to making this work. And if we pick South America, which relatively few people know much about, I think we would immediately limit the potential of this sim.

Scenario two makes this place accessible to vast majority of people who would want to play the game and immediately gives it a relevant context in the shenanigans of Atlasia... something with which virtually all of us are familiar as we get started.

[Hash]

I strongly favour the South America option: it's novel, obviously different from Atlasia, would allow for 'diplomacy' with remnants of Atlasia, it has a ton of fascinating political issues and possibilities for intense ideological debates about then. If we chose US-Canada, then this will become Atlasia with a slightly different setup and that's it - which would be extremely boring.

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

Just wanted to say you guys are doing a great job.

[PJ]

A South American simulation guarantees to be a more laborious task, but as long as we continue to have active GM steering us along the way, I support it. The GM needs to play an active role in informing MPs about current problems unique to South America, and this job requires a more involved role than the GM in Atlasia. I understand that this is a learning curve for many posters (myself included), but a North American system would bring us back to a repeat of Fantasy Elections very quickly.

[SUSAN CRUSHBONE]

i like the idea of south america but of course, as pj said, a lot depends on the gm and he has said it's not really his area of expertise.

[Donerail]

I'd be interested in doing a western Europe version. It'd seem to strike a middle ground between the US-Canada and South American proposals; the issues confronting Europe are substantially different from those affecting the US/Canada, to a degree where I doubt the game would feel like a redux of Atlasia, while the countries themselves are familiar enough (given our numbers of European players, as well as the emphasis put on European history in American schools) that there wouldn't be as steep a learning curve as there would be for South America. Additionally, Europe already has a Parliament - simply giving that Parliament more power is much more plausible and accessible than having to create and familiarize ourselves with some sort of post-apocalyptic America or federated South America. It just seems to strike the right balance between the desires for accessibility and novelty.

[Blair]

post soviet union russia would be a fun choice

[Foucaulf]

Let me cut in quickly: nothing's stopping any of you from choosing a new location and motioning I need to write a new scenario. I would work on that and a draft electoral system. It's more important that a base proposal doesn't divide us already.

I'll also clarify that I'm using the word "expertise" in the sense of "I only have expertise in US/Canada policy".

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

I am fine with the South America proposal, but I really think we ought to look more into the US/Canada annexation thing before we dive right into it. "Its boring", "it will be a rahash of Atlasia", etc, are all legitimate concerns, but we ought to look more into it just in case.

[Ban my account ffs!]

I also worry about the general lack of knowledge about south american politics with a couple players having great knowledge about it.  I'd rather play a north American scenario if only because there is greater background knowledge.

[Türkisblau]

I strongly support the South America option. Things on this site are too U.S. and Euro-centric as they are.

Why would we have to conform to South American politics!?

[TNF]

Yeah, I think a lot of us here are thinking that we're going to have to play as if we're all experts on South American politics, when that obviously isn't the case. If we had to make Atlasia conform to the normal avenues of United States politics, nothing close to a 'Labor Party' could ever have won the Presidency multiple times or came within a hair's breadth of nationalizing electricity production.

[Leinad]

I'd be interested in doing a western Europe version. It'd seem to strike a middle ground between the US-Canada and South American proposals

Co-sign. A European version would be fun--it's different than North America, but more familiar to us than South America. I'd like to hear a European tell me why that idea is good/bad.

post soviet union russia would be a fun choice

This also sounds fun. I might put it as my second choice behind Europe.

Although, really, I'm not against South America either, or Australia (maybe?), or democratic China (ooh!), or whatever the rest of the Parliament decides is best. But I'd like to warn my fellow members not to simply go with the first good idea they hear.

[PJ]

I would be okay with the European proposal: the EU faces several interesting issues. However, I still prefer South America over any western democracies. Atlasia went down the same path as a lot of western democracies, albeit with a slightly more progressive lean. There was a social democratic party, a conservative party, and some smaller ones, not too different from most western democracies. Especially because many members here are or were members of Atlasia at some point, most western democracy simulations would follow a very similar path not too dissimilar from what was already done in Atlasia. South America provides a different approach; its politics are very different than most of the world's. Not being involved in NATO, it plays a unique role in foreign policy, and the issue of development creates a host of issues not faced in the politics of the traditional western nations.

[Blair]

I would be okay with the European proposal: the EU faces several interesting issues. However, I still prefer South America over any western democracies. Atlasia went down the same path as a lot of western democracies, albeit with a slightly more progressive lean. There was a social democratic party, a conservative party, and some smaller ones, not too different from most western democracies. Especially because many members here are or were members of Atlasia at some point, most western democracy simulations would follow a very similar path not too dissimilar from what was already done in Atlasia. South America provides a different approach; its politics are very different than most of the world's. Not being involved in NATO, it plays a unique role in foreign policy, and the issue of development creates a host of issues not faced in the politics of the traditional western nations.

Agree with this, Atlasia became a basic progressives dream where social spending skyrocketed, drugs were legalized and everything was perfect.

We need to challenge ourself

[Hash]

Yes, South America provides an interesting challenge in that it's not a place which has the capacity to support a wet-dream of a welfare state off the bat, unlike US/Canada or Western Europe.

[politicus]

There is the development/poverty eradication vs. environmental protection/conservation issue. Conservatives and Christian Democrats are actually usually greener than the left wing (well, at least some of them and in some countries).

That should provide a challenge.

[TNF]

We have about an hour and ten minutes left for discussion. Has everyone said their peace on this?

[Hash]

I encourage uneasy players to take a chance with a South American scenario: nothing says we need to conform fully to RL South American political history, because as long as we interact with issues important there today (which shouldn't be inaccessible to anybody), it should be fun, novel and provide us with an exciting challenge. The issues in South America provide great fodder for discussion and gameplay, and allow for a whole host of ideologies from radical leftists to hard-right neoliberals (and in fact, such a setup would be more realistic than in US-Canada!). I wouldn't mind helping out a GM if need be, since I feel that I have a fairly solid understanding of South American politics and issues, especially for the major countries.

US-Canada, on the other hand, I struggle to see how it wouldn't end up like Atlasia 2.0 with a slightly different system, and as oakvale put it "where we'll just quickly end up in the same liberal/left quasi-utopia as we did in that doomed game" Europe would probably be much the same.

[Flake]

South America is a great choice because down there, there are issues that aren't simply present in the United States, Canada, or Western Europe. It's a chance to see a whole new system of politics that aren't dominated by the normal situation of demographics in the US, or what Hash had said:

Yes, South America provides an interesting challenge in that it's not a place which has the capacity to support a wet-dream of a welfare state off the bat, unlike US/Canada or Western Europe.

And we've already done these US games (with a lot of policies that look like Europe), and when you try to do that in a game that has failed many times before (trying to also be American), it's going to be a quick transition to Atlasia, where TNF somehow nationalizes energy across the continent and where the right wing is in a constant state of collapse.

Even with the 80's European Union game, we'd have three situations of what exactly would happen:
-the USSR collapses (as it does in 1991)
-the USSR grows stronger and starts to spread its influence over Europe
-everything stays exactly the same as it did in 1983 or w/e

I, for one, would like to try something new instead of a something that's 10 years old, or where we can expect the outcome. New = better than eventually turning into Atlasia 2.0.

[TNF]

A vote is now open on the following bill:

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Voting will continue until a majority is reached in favor or opposed, or twenty-four (24) hours has passed.

[TNF]

Aye

[Hash]

Aye.

[Murica!]

Aye