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Author Topic: Is it just me, or does Trump seem untouchable?  (Read 6476 times)
#TheShadowyAbyss
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« on: July 29, 2015, 07:23:06 am »
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Ok so we have Trump's comments about immigrants, Trump's attacks on McCain, Trump-Graham incident, and the whole Ivana Trump accusations (although she said they were still friends and walked back on that). It seems like none of this is really hurting him, is he becoming untouchable or something?
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« Reply #1 on: July 29, 2015, 07:27:27 am »
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Ok so we have Trump's comments about immigrants, Trump's attacks on McCain, Trump-Graham incident, and the whole Ivana Trump accusations (although she said they were still friends and walked back on that).

He's also apparently disgusted by lawyers taking breaks to use a breast pump:

http://edition.cnn.com/videos/us/2015/07/29/trump-disgusting-breast-milk-pump-attorney.cnn/video/playlists/most-popular-domestic/
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« Reply #2 on: July 29, 2015, 08:07:29 am »
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Trump is a guy who is going to make other people take him down in the open, in front of everyone else.  And he's doing this because of the very political environment his enemies have helped create.

It's the GOP that has explicitly fanned the flames of rebellion against "political correctness".  It's Republicans who encourage folks to, in some cases, be downright insensitive and rude in their public responses to various events, in their reaction to demands to be "politically correct".  (And, yes, I agree that the degree to which political correctness has taken root is pretty unreasonable.)  But guys like Trump thrive in that environment, and his constituency includes a large number of folks who are sick of being told that they cannot voice their grievances explicitly because "others might be offended".  These folks don't care if Trump was a cad toward a female, or if he made comments toward females they would take a swing at someone for if he said that about their wife or daughter.  These folks are tired of being told that their complaints are invalid and expression of their complaints are offensive, and they are not going to abandon Trump just because he's rough around the edges in his public discourse.

What Trump can't get around is that the rest of the GOP dislikes him, and is committed to preventing his nomination.  Trump's entry into the Presidential race brings out into the open the status of the GOP Presidential nomination contenders as a closed party that he, Trump, just crashed.  It's not unlike George Wallace deciding to run as a Democrat in 1972, although at that time, the Democratic Party had an entire wing of conservative Southerners who'd have been OK with Wallace's nomination.  While Trump is being reacted to by the national Republicans much as the 1972 Wallace was by the Democrats, he doesn't have the kind of concentrated regional appeal of established Democrats (however conservative they may have been) that couldn't be ignored.

If Trump stays in the race and gains a chunk of delegates (perhaps the biggest single chunk of delegates), that's where he'll be stopped.  I am convinced that Trump will have to win 50% of the delegates outright to get the nomination, and I don't see how THAT could happen.  The other candidates may drop out, but they will not release their delegates until a deal is made to coalesce around an "approved" ticket.  Then, Trump will either bolt (not likely), endorse the ticket (but not enthusiastically, and his "campaign help" will not be wanted), or give a very tepid endorsement while letting loose throughout the campaign with statements of how the GOP is doing it wrong, did him wrong, isn't going to win, etc.  He'll be voting Republican while being a vocal critic. 

The last of these three (3) options is the one I think Trump will ultimately choose.  I think Trump will be getting a taste of being an "insider" and discover that he likes it to a degree.  He's now vested in the GOP, and, over time, the GOP will, however involuntarily, be vested in Trump.  Because if it DOESN'T play out that way, Trump will be leading a permanent faction that will be big enough to keep Democrats in the White House for another 16 years.   
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« Reply #3 on: July 29, 2015, 08:59:49 am »
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Even one of these events would have been enough to take down one of the 2011 flavors of the month.

His popularity may have been dampened by the McCain comments, but his campaign has nonetheless proven remarkably resilient to controversy.
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« Reply #4 on: July 29, 2015, 09:11:34 am »
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I doubt anyone supports Trump because they think he's a good person. Trump's built a persona wherein he is defined by the ability to say and do things no one else can and get away with it, and people are generally aware of this or even drawn to it when they get on the Trump Train.
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« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2015, 09:14:24 am »
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Even one of these events would have been enough to take down one of the 2011 flavors of the month.

Not in all cases.  It took quite a few sexual harrassment claims (not to mention a fair few stupid comments and senior moments) to take down Cain.
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« Reply #6 on: July 29, 2015, 09:14:51 am »
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Very much a Nigel Farage-esque phenomenon. He is free to flaunt gaffes that would sink a lesser politician, because he knows how to present himself as the perpetual outsider. (Berlusconi has this skill as well)
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« Reply #7 on: July 29, 2015, 09:16:08 am »
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Even one of these events would have been enough to take down one of the 2011 flavors of the month.

Not in all cases.  It took quite a few sexual harrassment claims (not to mention a fair few stupid comments and senior moments) to take down Cain.


Well it wasn't so much that it was insufficient to take him down than it was that multiple claims were needed in order for them to be taken seriously.

I just hope Trump doesn't turn into some kind of Berlusconi-esque Teflon man.
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The world is becoming globalized, but cosmopolitanism is being hijacked by the Davos Man. What choice is left besides nationalism? The thought is terrifying, to be honest.

I just hope Trump doesn't turn into some kind of Berlusconi-esque Teflon man.
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« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2015, 09:17:08 am »
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I doubt anyone supports Trump because they think he's a good person.

I certainly don't think Trump is a "good person", but is Jeb Bush?  Is Scott Walker?  Walker and Jeb are bigger scumbags than Trump could dream of being.  Especially Walker, because he's a sell-out scumbag.  Without someone to sell out to, Scott Walker wouldn't even be a Milwaukee County Commissioner.

People support Trump because he gives voice to their specific (and ignored) grievances.  Trump is about to show us just how much mileage one can get out of such politics.  I think a lot, because Trump's solutions are for elected officials to do what they said they were going to do (e. g. build the border fence).  Note, by the way, that Building the Border Fence isn't promising an outcome; it's promising a specific act, which is what a President CAN deliver.  
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« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2015, 09:18:57 am »
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Even one of these events would have been enough to take down one of the 2011 flavors of the month.

Not in all cases.  It took quite a few sexual harrassment claims (not to mention a fair few stupid comments and senior moments) to take down Cain.


Well it wasn't so much that it was insufficient to take him down than it was that multiple claims were needed in order for them to be taken seriously.

Right.  But it's similar with Trump and the Ivana allegation.  If there were several more stories like that, Trump would be toast.
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« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2015, 09:21:17 am »
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Even one of these events would have been enough to take down one of the 2011 flavors of the month.

Not in all cases.  It took quite a few sexual harrassment claims (not to mention a fair few stupid comments and senior moments) to take down Cain.


Well it wasn't so much that it was insufficient to take him down than it was that multiple claims were needed in order for them to be taken seriously.

Right.  But it's similar with Trump and the Ivana allegation.  If there were several more stories like that, Trump would be toast.


Would he, though? Trump is the sort of person who I could see playing the victim card in such a situation and getting away with it.
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The world is becoming globalized, but cosmopolitanism is being hijacked by the Davos Man. What choice is left besides nationalism? The thought is terrifying, to be honest.

I just hope Trump doesn't turn into some kind of Berlusconi-esque Teflon man.
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« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2015, 09:23:15 am »
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Even one of these events would have been enough to take down one of the 2011 flavors of the month.

Not in all cases.  It took quite a few sexual harrassment claims (not to mention a fair few stupid comments and senior moments) to take down Cain.


Well it wasn't so much that it was insufficient to take him down than it was that multiple claims were needed in order for them to be taken seriously.

Right.  But it's the similar with Trump and the Ivana allegation.  If there were several more stories like that, Trump would be toast.


Trump would be toast if there are more stories that portray him in a Cosby-esque light.  But I don't believe there are such stories.  I'm sure he's been a cad at times, but that's not the kind of story that sinks candidates as it did in the past (for better or for worse).

Trump is a guy who knows what dirt is available to others on him.  He knows he's slept around and not always been a good boy in his personal life.  Indeed, he knows that there are portions of his personal life that folks might find unsavory.  I am CERTAIN that he has calculated all of this prior to putting himself in a position where he will be personally scrutinized in ways that he has never been before.
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« Reply #12 on: July 29, 2015, 09:28:20 am »
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Then again, did anyone expect this of Cosby?

With the new and increasingly popular standard of affirmative consent, I suspect there may be unpleasant sounding stories from Trump's younger years, or indeed most candidates', but particularly Trump, with the time he spent "living it up" in his 20s. Whether or not they'd gain currency outside left-wing circles is another matter, however.
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The world is becoming globalized, but cosmopolitanism is being hijacked by the Davos Man. What choice is left besides nationalism? The thought is terrifying, to be honest.

I just hope Trump doesn't turn into some kind of Berlusconi-esque Teflon man.
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« Reply #13 on: July 29, 2015, 09:31:35 am »
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Trump seems untouchable because we all make huge conclusions to temporary things.
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« Reply #14 on: July 29, 2015, 09:46:46 am »
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For better or worse, Donald Trump entered the race as a known quantity. Any one of the scandals listed may have brought down another candidate because most candidates aren't household names the way Trump is.

His comments about McCain didn't hurt him for several reasons, among them is the fact that the public generally expects a guy who has captured headlines by making provocative statements to, well, make provocative statements. The Ivanka Trump scandal? He has been a controversial figure for so long that this should've been a bigger deal years ago. Because it's only now a headline, this look like a calculated political move to derail his campaign.

Trump isn't a politician. Not really, at least. So the normal rules that apply to most candidates don't apply to him.
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#TheShadowyAbyss
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« Reply #15 on: July 29, 2015, 10:20:02 am »
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TBH, We'll see after the first debate, I don't think Trump is going to be able to fend off 8-9 people constantly going after him at once (Cruz won't go after him) that's when I think we'll see his numbers begin to go down......then again....crazier things have happened.
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« Reply #16 on: July 29, 2015, 10:20:46 am »
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His numbers will go down when people start asking for an actual plan (via the debates)
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« Reply #17 on: July 29, 2015, 10:25:03 am »
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His numbers will go down when people start asking for an actual plan (via the debates)

And that he's flip flopped multiple times on the issues while we're at it. Someone is definitely going to bring that up.
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« Reply #18 on: July 29, 2015, 10:39:50 am »
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On Herman Cain, his stupid comments didn't sink him nor did the multiple sexual harassment claims. It was ultimately a woman coming forward about a consensual affair with Cain, and some circumstantial financial evidence, Cain's wife leaving him out in the lurch, and ultimately his unconvincing or even non-denial of it. Maybe that made people reconsider his denials of the harassment accusations? In any case, like Gingrich angrily denying asking his wife for an open marriage, voters were largely ready to rally to a candidate who cries that they are in fact the victim.
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« Reply #19 on: July 29, 2015, 08:42:00 pm »
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A long time ago, some pundit (I forget who) suggested that Ronald Reagan would be elected President because he's a real actor, and, as such, at an incredible advantage over the mere lawyer-actors that populate the Presidential candidacy pool.  This was in the 1970s, and it proved to be correct.  Reagan was the perfect candidate; he took direction, he knew what to say and how to handle people, and he projected likablilty.  People liked Reagan.  I liked him, and I didn't vote for him either time he was nominated (although I abstained from voting for President totally in 1980, voting straight Democratic for everyone else). 

Trump's not likeable in the sense Reagan was, but he does know how to take direction and he projects decisiveness.  Even if he's been all over the map on some issues, being decisive doesn't mean you never change.  It means that you commit early enough to where, if your decision appears to be wrong, you have time to change course, as opposed to being stuck with a lemon by picking at the last minute.  People like this, and will forgive a degree of inconsistency in exchange for decisiveness.

But it does come down to dimmidmi said about Trump being a known commodity.  People know ghe's brassy and crass and thy know he's slept around.  They know he's one to say "You're fired!".  Oddly enough, saying "You're fired!" is a quality that seems to be lacking in Presidents, even ones that wre considered great leaders.  Reagan, the great leader, couldn't fire anyone, and he paid derly for that.  Indeed, Nixon was the last President I can think of who was really willing to fire a disloyal subordinate; every President since seems to pussyfoot around that.  Trump would bring "You're fired!" back to the Oval Office, and the's a case to be made that this is needed.

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« Reply #20 on: July 29, 2015, 09:35:05 pm »
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A long time ago, some pundit (I forget who) suggested that Ronald Reagan would be elected President because he's a real actor, and, as such, at an incredible advantage over the mere lawyer-actors that populate the Presidential candidacy pool.  This was in the 1970s, and it proved to be correct.  Reagan was the perfect candidate; he took direction, he knew what to say and how to handle people, and he projected likablilty.  People liked Reagan.  I liked him, and I didn't vote for him either time he was nominated (although I abstained from voting for President totally in 1980, voting straight Democratic for everyone else). 

Trump's not likeable in the sense Reagan was, but he does know how to take direction and he projects decisiveness.  Even if he's been all over the map on some issues, being decisive doesn't mean you never change.  It means that you commit early enough to where, if your decision appears to be wrong, you have time to change course, as opposed to being stuck with a lemon by picking at the last minute.  People like this, and will forgive a degree of inconsistency in exchange for decisiveness.

But it does come down to dimmidmi said about Trump being a known commodity.  People know ghe's brassy and crass and thy know he's slept around.  They know he's one to say "You're fired!".  Oddly enough, saying "You're fired!" is a quality that seems to be lacking in Presidents, even ones that wre considered great leaders.  Reagan, the great leader, couldn't fire anyone, and he paid derly for that.  Indeed, Nixon was the last President I can think of who was really willing to fire a disloyal subordinate; every President since seems to pussyfoot around that.  Trump would bring "You're fired!" back to the Oval Office, and the's a case to be made that this is needed.



Are we really comparing Ronald Reagan to Donald Trump? President Reagan had a belief that our country could be strong again if we pursued policies that minimized regulation and allowed markets to work. He believed that the United States should have the strongest military possible because that was the best way to ensure we were kept safe. Donald Trump has been the product of anything BUT free markets, he has declared disdain for the free market. Additionally, Ronald Reagan and people in his administration learned from history. They had a distinct economic philosophy. They pursued policies to create growth. Donald Trump has not demonstrated a knowledge of public policy. He has demonstrated an ignorance of public policy. President Reagan was a conservative. Donald Trump is a socialist. There is a huge difference.

There is also a difference in style. President Reagan knew how to contrast himself with his opponents, but he did so in a way that was issue based and respectful. Donald Trump has resorted to negative personal attacks. Reagan had a love for America, while Trump has a love for himself. Reagan made people hopeful again, and Jeb Bush is the only candidate seeking to do that in this campaign. Donald Trump is exploiting people's fears.

I have said on here multiple times the issue with Trump is he doesn't know the issues and therefore, we aren't talking about the issues. I've said multiple times he's not a smart man, and he's not a true capitalist.

One thing I have not said before is that Trump is bad for society. Some in what is known as the "religious right" like to talk about how same-sex marriage is causing problems in our society. I believe that can't be further from the truth. What is causing problems in our culture today is a lack of basic decency. Reality TV, which exploits people who don't know any better, has played a role in this lack of basic decency. The Apprentice essentially exploits people. Since when was it "entertainment" to watch someone being let go on national television? Donald Trump is an amoral and evil individual. Not just because of the Apprentice, but because he only cares about himself and his reckless behavior in his personal and public life are appalling. This man has no decency.

To answer the question here, few candidates have touched on Trump's socialism. Rick Perry is the only one to do so to date. None have touched on his lack of morals, and that he is the enemy in this culture war. Most of these candidates view Trump as a side show. He's leading in polls, but they know that will end.
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« Reply #21 on: July 29, 2015, 10:36:53 pm »
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His numbers will go down when people start asking for an actual plan (via the debates)

And that he's flip flopped multiple times on the issues while we're at it. Someone is definitely going to bring that up.
People and the media only care about flip-floppers if they are Rand Paul.
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« Reply #22 on: July 30, 2015, 07:52:49 am »
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Voters will tire of his act in due course. Some enjoy his antics, but many of those will not really in the end want him to be POTUS. The job is just too important. Be patient. And that would be my advice to the candidates, except perhaps those trying to generate their own buzz to get into the mix, and have higher visibility. Maybe Christie will go there. They speak the same language.
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« Reply #23 on: July 30, 2015, 09:26:50 am »
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Voters will tire of his act in due course. Some enjoy his antics, but many of those will not really in the end want him to be POTUS. The job is just too important. Be patient. And that would be my advice to the candidates, except perhaps those trying to generate their own buzz to get into the mix, and have higher visibility. Maybe Christie will go there. The speak the same language.
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« Reply #24 on: July 31, 2015, 10:54:49 pm »
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Voters will tire of his act in due course. Some enjoy his antics, but many of those will not really in the end want him to be POTUS. The job is just too important. Be patient. And that would be my advice to the candidates, except perhaps those trying to generate their own buzz to get into the mix, and have higher visibility. Maybe Christie will go there. They speak the same language.

It never dawns on folks that Trump may well be leading because people agree with him on the issues he emphasizes moreso than they do with other candidates, and that the issues Trump emphasized are more important to a big slice of the GOP than the issues other candidates are emphasizing.

Trump's supporters may be dissed and dismissed as "low information voters", but since Baker v. Carr, it's one-man-one-vote, regardless of the "information" level.  They know where they stand and what they want, and they are tired of the political class trot out it's approved candidates and lecturing them about what they really need.
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