Bernie sanders on immigration

[OSR stands with Israel]

http://reason.com/blog/2015/07/28/on-immigration-bernie-sanders-sounds-lik

[ElectionsGuy]

Wow, that's nuts. He's wrong to say that open borders is a 'right wing' proposal. Republicans have moved significantly to the right on immigration in the past decade. He sounds like Scott Walker when he says we need to protect wages. It looks like he agrees with many Republicans on this issue.

[NeverAgain]

http://www.vox.com/2015/7/28/9014491/bernie-sanders-vox-conversation
Watch the full interview. I disagree with him on open borders. I think that when he says that it will drive down the wages of Americans because they will work for cheaper he is not factoring in the illegal vs. legal immigrants, illegals working for substantially less than legals. That being said, he disagrees with open borders, I would enjoy seeing where he stands on a pathway to citizenship for immigrants who live here.
But I will say that disagreeing with open borders and saying it will drive down wages, is pretty different then classifying all people crossing the border as 'rapists'.

[#TheShadowyAbyss]

Sometimes I can't tell if he actually believes this or he is trolling us all...

[OSR stands with Israel]

http://www.vox.com/2015/7/28/9014491/bernie-sanders-vox-conversation
Watch the full interview. I disagree with him on open borders. I think that when he says that it will drive down the wages of Americans because they will work for cheaper he is not factoring in the illegal vs. legal immigrants, illegals working for substantially less than legals. That being said, he disagrees with open borders, I would enjoy seeing where he stands on a pathway to citizenship for immigrants who live here.
But I will say that disagreeing with open borders and saying it will drive down wages, is pretty different then classifying all people crossing the border as 'rapists'.

I agree about your final point as I oppose open borders as well

[Mehmentum]

This is an extension of the logic that leads many liberals to oppose free trade agreements.  Its a sort of left wing nativism, and its consistent with Sanders' ideology.

I disagree with it completely.  In fact, I think that immigration strengthens our country over all.  One of the long term problems facing every first world country is an ageing population and a slowing of population growth.  Immigration is a way to ameliorate this, and the U.S. is in a unique position to take advantage of it.

[Famous Mortimer]

This is an extension of the logic that leads many liberals to oppose free trade agreements.  Its a sort of left wing nativism, and its consistent with Sanders' ideology.

I disagree with it completely.  In fact, I think that immigration strengthens our country over all.  One of the long term problems facing every first world country is an ageing population and a slowing of population growth.  Immigration is a way to ameliorate this, and the U.S. is in a unique position to take advantage of it.

Slowing population growth is not a problem when you have high unemployment and massive underemployment.

[Famous Mortimer]

http://www.vox.com/2015/7/28/9014491/bernie-sanders-vox-conversation
Watch the full interview. I disagree with him on open borders. I think that when he says that it will drive down the wages of Americans because they will work for cheaper he is not factoring in the illegal vs. legal immigrants, illegals working for substantially less than legals. That being said, he disagrees with open borders, I would enjoy seeing where he stands on a pathway to citizenship for immigrants who live here.
But I will say that disagreeing with open borders and saying it will drive down wages, is pretty different then classifying all people crossing the border as 'rapists'.

Sanders supports a path to citizenship for people already here but isn't big on bringing in any new people.

As to your point about legal vs. illegal immigrants. Yes, illegal immigrants work for less than legal immigrants but legal immigrants still work for less than American born citizens.

[Simfan34]

Leftist people on Facebook calling Sanders "disgusting" over this. And this for something that makes some sense!

[Mehmentum]

This is an extension of the logic that leads many liberals to oppose free trade agreements.  Its a sort of left wing nativism, and its consistent with Sanders' ideology.

I disagree with it completely.  In fact, I think that immigration strengthens our country over all.  One of the long term problems facing every first world country is an ageing population and a slowing of population growth.  Immigration is a way to ameliorate this, and the U.S. is in a unique position to take advantage of it.

Slowing population growth is not a problem when you have high unemployment and massive underemployment.

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[Horus]

This is an extension of the logic that leads many liberals to oppose free trade agreements.  Its a sort of left wing nativism, and its consistent with Sanders' ideology.

I disagree with it completely.  In fact, I think that immigration strengthens our country over all.  One of the long term problems facing every first world country is an ageing population and a slowing of population growth.  Immigration is a way to ameliorate this, and the U.S. is in a unique position to take advantage of it.

Yeah, this. I love Bernie but he's wrong here.

[Famous Mortimer]

This is an extension of the logic that leads many liberals to oppose free trade agreements.  Its a sort of left wing nativism, and its consistent with Sanders' ideology.

I disagree with it completely.  In fact, I think that immigration strengthens our country over all.  One of the long term problems facing every first world country is an ageing population and a slowing of population growth.  Immigration is a way to ameliorate this, and the U.S. is in a unique position to take advantage of it.

Slowing population growth is not a problem when you have high unemployment and massive underemployment.

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Long term, in the face of automation, unemployment and underemployment will continue to be a problem. We're likely never to enter an age again, where we have too many jobs to go around. Until we do, slowing population growth, or even decline, will not be a problem.

[Famous Mortimer]

"But as Reason’s Shikha Dalmia has long-argued, this view is at odds with the consensus among economists that more immigration is better for the economy, has a positive effect on wages, and creates jobs."

Reason thinks immigration will lead to higher wages, the same people who think getting rid of the minimum wage will lead to higher wages. That should tell you something.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

Well, he did say he liked Europe

[Simfan34]

"But as Reason’s Shikha Dalmia has long-argued, this view is at odds with the consensus among economists that more immigration is better for the economy, has a positive effect on wages, and creates jobs."

Reason thinks immigration will lead to higher wages, the same people who think getting rid of the minimum wage will lead to higher wages. That should tell you something.

They do? I get the opposite impression from that passage.

[Mehmentum]

This is an extension of the logic that leads many liberals to oppose free trade agreements.  Its a sort of left wing nativism, and its consistent with Sanders' ideology.

I disagree with it completely.  In fact, I think that immigration strengthens our country over all.  One of the long term problems facing every first world country is an ageing population and a slowing of population growth.  Immigration is a way to ameliorate this, and the U.S. is in a unique position to take advantage of it.

Slowing population growth is not a problem when you have high unemployment and massive underemployment.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Long term, in the face of automation, unemployment and underemployment will continue to be a problem. We're likely never to enter an age again, where we have too many jobs to go around. Until we do, slowing population growth, or even decline, will not be a problem.

Well, it will certainly be a problem for Social Security and Medicare.  Long term, those programs face insolvency, which will most likely lead to cutting benefits and/or raising the retirement age. 

There are other, less obvious downsides to an aging population.  Younger people are more innovative and adaptive (which is why industries like tech start ups attract mostly young people).  In the future, a country that can attract younger workers from around the world will have a more innovative, technological, and vibrant economy, while insular countries remain stagnant. 

Furthermore, studies have repeatedly found no long term correlation between immigration and unemployment.  Some studies have found an increase in unemployment in the short run, but that is due to the immigrants themselves having difficulty finding jobs.

Immigration is a boogeyman.  Its used to scare people about nameless outsiders coming in to take jobs from hard working Americans.  The truth is that immigrants consume just as many goods and services as native born citizens do, and the increased demand for these goods and services creates additional jobs.  In addition, immigrants bring a work ethic and innovation that could actually lead to more economic growth.

[Famous Mortimer]

Social Security and Medicaid are fine. The only thing that might make them not fine is if we expand Medicaid to cover all citizens and then start giving out citizenship on demand to all residents of the third world. Short of that, it's fine. People have been saying it will become insolvent for years but it never happens, it's mostly a Republican ploy to privatize what little safety net we have.

As to young people, young people are disproportionately unemployed/underemployed, as Sanders points out in the interview. Low wage/entry level workers are the ones who need more competition least of all. With regards to the general economic attractiveness of young people, most of the third world is disproportionately young. Most of the industrialized world is disproportionately old. So obviously being young is no benefit. Yeah, old countries have some problems but they're problems like "we have a slightly larger than usual budget deficit". Young countries have problems like "a large chunk of the population live in shacks without electricity".

I'm well aware that there are lots of studies that say immigration doesn't cause unemployment or drive down wages. There are lots of studies that say a lot of things. It goes against common sense though. More job seekers in an anemic job market means people are more desperate, employers don't have to offer as much. Also, it's pure wishful thinking to think that the consumption habits of immigrats will create a number of additional jobs greater than the number of additional immigrants.

The idea that the immigration will make the overall economy better (unless you measure the overall economy by CEO pay) is contrary to universally accepted laws of supply and demand. The one thing you can say, as the guy interviewing Sanders said, is that it will make third world immigrants slightly richer. That is true but as Sanders said, general pay will equalize between what is slightly better for the third world and what is poverty for Americans.

Finally, let's not pretend growing the overall economy is your legit main reason for backing immigration. You want immigration because you think it's the only non-racist position and maybe because you want that economic benefit for the immigrants themselves. That's why you favor it. The bizarre claims that it will make wages go up or lower unemployment are just pro-immigrant people working backwards to justify a position they already decided on otherwise.

[Vega]

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

Completely open borders is a silly idea anyways. I mean sure, if you want to eliminate the safety net and the minimum wage, it makes sense, but if your economic views aren't pretty right-wing, you'll have high unemployment and large deficits.

[Mehmentum]

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The U.S. Social Security Administration disagrees with you.

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This argument is ridiculous on its face.  Young people don't cause countries to be poor.  As countries develop, improved access to medical care, education, and birth control lead to higher life expectancies and lower birth rates.  This causes populations to age as people live longer and have fewer kids.  This isn't an obscure fact.  In fact, this is common knowledge.

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I have to stop you right there.  Common sense is often wrong, and often misleads.  Quantum mechanics and general relativity both fly in the face of common sense.  Particles can exist in two places at once, time runs slower the faster you move.  These are not common sense ideas, yet they are backed up by the empirical evidence. 

In this case, our common sense is unreliable because our brains were evolved to handle interactions between at most a few dozen people. For most of history, our brains never needed to deal with the complex economic interactions between millions of people.  The scientific method, not common sense, has fueled technological progress and revolutionized our society.

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What you're doing here is using your already held assumptions to dismiss empirical evidence.  What you should be doing is changing your assumptions when evidence has shown them to be flawed.

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How about you stop accusing me of being a liar and take my intentions at face value.  I genuinely believe that immigration makes our country stronger.  This country's unique history (and future) as a country of immigrants is something that genuinely makes me proud to be an American.

[Orthogonian Society Treasurer]

I guess National Review was right. Bernie really is a National Socialist. #BernieSoNazi

[mencken]

Glad that we have a nationalist running for President, although I would prefer if he were not also a socialist.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

I guess National Review was right. Bernie really is a National Socialist. #BernieSoNazi

I guess National Review was right. Bernie really is a National Socialist. #BernieSoNazi

So you're either for unrestricted open borders or a Nazi?

[An American Tail: Fubart Goes West]

I guess National Review was right. Bernie really is a National Socialist. #BernieSoNazi

I guess National Review was right. Bernie really is a National Socialist. #BernieSoNazi

So you're either for unrestricted open borders or a Nazi?

Bernie is literally Hitler. #BerniesoNazi

[Marokai Backbeat]

I guess National Review was right. Bernie really is a National Socialist. #BernieSoNazi

I guess National Review was right. Bernie really is a National Socialist. #BernieSoNazi

So you're either for unrestricted open borders or a Nazi?

Yeah, once again the criticism of Bernie from the left is hysterical.