Does racism still exist in the South?

[dazzleman]

But did they abandon the first type of racism because they truly believed that they were wrong, or because they had clearly lost the battle, with all the court cases and federal legislation, not to mention most public opinion, going against them.

A little bit of both.  It depends upon the person.  And some have not abandoned it, but simply gone underground.  I think political correctness makes the problem worse because it incites resentment by making legitimate complaints verboten, which sometimes turns them into generalized hate, and lends legitimacy to that hate.  I think it's better to expose hateful philosophies to the light of day; usually, they can't survive that, but they can survive quite well underground.

I don't think there's broad support for a policy of suppressing black opportunity any longer.  Even if only for reasons of self-interest, most Americans realize that it's not in our best interests to deliberately impoverish a significant segment of our population, as was done most markedly in the south for so long.  It's the stupidest thing imaginable, and this policy was in large measure responsible for the general impoverishment of the south for so long.

I think most Americans are unrealistic in thinking that because we have removed the legal shackles from blacks, that they should pull themselves up overnight.  It doesn't work that way, and many whites are unwilling to acknowledge the long-term effects of past practices.  But still, those past practices should not be used as a blanket excuse for failure, as many blacks and their so-called political sympathizers have done.

I think there has been a tacit arrangement between blacks and whites to shelve the race issue.  Blacks in general are so that anxious for integration and white acceptance as they were in the past.  Many would actually rather live primarily among blacks, and want first and foremost decent employment and educational opportunities, either within their own communities if possible or in the larger society if necessary.  But I can't see any evidence of a great desire among blacks to attend largely white schools, or live in white neighborhoods.

As far as whites go, most have simply given up, and just want to avoid the problem because they see no way of fixing it.  That is the default human approach to problems, and it is only so often that the window of opportunity opens to actually fix a problem like this.  The last time was in the 1960s, and it was quickly slammed shut by a number of things -- most importantly black riots and ill-conceived liberal policies that denied reality and failed miserably, thereby squandering a rare opportunity.  And liberals are still pushing the same old thing, though even they don't really believe it anymore, for the most part.

[Akno21]

I think it's not that you want to go to a school/restaurant/neighborhood where the majority of the population is a different race, but that you can. That's a common mindset for a lot of the "rights" issues. I don't want to be married to a homosexual, but I hopefully someone can. I don't want to smoke pot, but hopefully people can. 

I'll agree that there is only so much the government can do, and most progress must come from within. Minority areas get a lot of financial support, though you wouldn't realize it by going there. It's a tough problem, because you don't want to throw money into the toilet, but you don't want to say "f*** off" to a sizable percentage of the population. But then again, I don't see signs that they will change from within. I don't see the urge to get better, and that's what troubles me. It's a cycle, but they have to be the first to get out of it, the government can't do it for them.

I do think that the race issue is still very prevelant in our society, and for other reasons than the fact that we are divided by it. There's still the second form of racism, and the culture gap, which I think disputes the notion of America as a melting pot, when we are still divided by our skin color in economic, cultural, and social matters.

I think that blacks as a whole still feel insecure, that someone is out to get them, almost in the same way that old white Dixie feels. You are automatically brothers, in a sense, with somone who is the same skin color or from the same region, but that is only in a few cases, African Americans and the old white dixie south. By letting cultural bonds hold a group together, you really just hold the group back.

[angus]

churches have a role to play as they keep the majority of communities together.

indeed.  like the church that systematically burned the Maya scrolls and killed their priests so that the Maya peoples can be more easily controlled.  or the church that handed over Tutsi schoolgirls to the Hutu genocidists.  or the church that gave its blessings to the attempt to subjugate the "darkies" of the Indian subcontinent.  the churches have certainly played a role in keeping the majority of the community together.  keeping the majority of the community together, after all, makes it easier to see what they're up to.

Look, we european peoples have a very long history of claiming racial, religious, and moral authority over the rest of the world.  That's a fact.  But to give in to the temptation of allowing White Man's Guilt to become a substitute for egalitarianism and compassion falsely and too conveniently provides cover for the truest racists among us.  Those who would create a permanent second class citizenship through promotion of the belief that hispanics and blacks, for example, are so intrinsically inferior that they cannot compete fairly with whites and asians, and therefore need a special helping hand from the government.  These are the racists who persist.  Those in authority, who have the power to help alleviate problems of racism, if they wanted to, if promoting racism didn't serve their ends, certainly could do much to ease racism all over this country, again, if they could only see that the brand of racism they're promoting is damaging society.  Racism certainly exists all over the usa, it no doubt manifests itself more often and with greater alacrity in those places in which people of different races live side by side.  I was called a "cracker" for the first time in my life recently.   How can I walk through the streets of any small town in California without being called a "cracker" to my face, and within a month of walking through the streets of Columbus get called one?  Does that mean that Mississippi blacks are more "racist" than those elsewhere?  If that's your conclusion, then you're using inductive reasoning, at best.   I still contend that we have the schools (and therefore ourselves) to blame for that shallowness of thought.  Racism is taught.  It is not hard to teach, either, since we're still not so far from the early primates, the creatures of instinct, that had not yet learned to build churches, schools, and museums.  Members of my own species, and my own subspecies, are more likely to give in to the urge to protect me, while others may have instinctive motivations to kill me.  In civilized societies we can try to calm these instincts, but it takes a concerted effort by all its members.  And it also requires a modicum of trust.  I'm not sure the USA, and certainly not the rest of the world, has quite reached that economic condition whereby our basic needs are so well met that we can begin to work on self actualization.  I have been the only white man in a room full of blacks, in a room full of asians, and in a room full of native peoples of the americas.  I have found myself in that condition for weeks on end at various points in my life, and when my approach to the majority members of the community was one of mutual benefit, then I prospered.  When my approach was one of destruction, or interpreted as such, there was mutual stress.  So I'm convinced that humans of different races, or even different subcultures within a race, can get past their differences, but it will take some effort on everyone's part. 

Yes, there is certainly racism in columbus, I can vouch for that.  My bangladeshi neighbors don't like blacks, my black neighbor never invites my chink wife or me over for dinner, and I have only once had a black man over for dinner at my house since I've been here.  But that's one more than I had over in the three years I lived in California.  And you really shouldn't read anything into that fact except that in California I simply didn't know any.

[Bleeding heart conservative, HTMLdon]

I think that blacks as a whole still feel insecure, that someone is out to get them, almost in the same way that old white Dixie feels. You are automatically brothers, in a sense, with somone who is the same skin color or from the same region, but that is only in a few cases, African Americans and the old white dixie south. By letting cultural bonds hold a group together, you really just hold the group back.

So, in other words, the strategy of your political party is still 'working'.

[TheWildCard]

Well Duh yes racism still exists everywhere. There will always be racists. Just like there will always be diseases, there will always be violence and there will always be annoying Old Navy  commercials on TV.

[Akno21]

I think that blacks as a whole still feel insecure, that someone is out to get them, almost in the same way that old white Dixie feels. You are automatically brothers, in a sense, with somone who is the same skin color or from the same region, but that is only in a few cases, African Americans and the old white dixie south. By letting cultural bonds hold a group together, you really just hold the group back.

So, in other words, the strategy of your political party is still 'working'.

And yours too. How'd you win the Georgia Governorship in 2002? "Vote against Barnes, he's taking away southern culture" phone calls and mail might have helped.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Is the Pope German?

[angus]

okay, I was thumbing through a paper at fuqua's and I was reminded of another point when I noticed that Mad Apple is playing at the Princess Theater tonight, and Soul Biscuit Review is playing in Catfish Alley.  There was also a Van Halen/Garth Brooks coverband playing somewhere.  the obligatory mullet crowd.  These places are close, within walking distance, but I always have to ask mommy for permission to do anything.  she's given new meaning to the phrase "stay at home mom"  this is why I'm kayaking and cycling so much weekends.  deadbeat dad.  actually not.  nice reprieve though.  anyway, my point is that these places don't actually have signs on the door okay.  we should clear that up.  Columbus certainly has no shortages of bars, and yes there are "white" bars and "black" bars.  and a "mexican" one.  there's an alt/college/modern scene, a mullet scene, and a black scene, pretty much.  and I know that's an oversimplification.   Don't say it "... all sounds the same to white folks..."  Sure, you get stared at if you're the only honkey in the place, as you would in a latino bar in LA, or deep in the interior of Jamaica (both nice places)  If I make it anywhere tonight.  Mmmmm.  I smell pork and garlic.  righteous.  If I make it out tonight I'll let you know whether there are any large scale race riots in my little bit of old Dixie. 

speaking of walmart, mom'n'pop sent me to walmart!  I was looking for one of those hardening clay kits you can use to make a footprint or a handprint of a little baby because I was going to give my wife one for mother's day.  wow, mother in 93 and I've only been married since June.  haven't thought about Mother's day in years.  anyway, I went into a few little stores downtown looking for this.  didn't feel like driving.  too drunk.  too stoned.  whatever.  anyway, I went in to the store (of course with a white owner and all white employees), a few such stores.  smallish.  all similar.  "Nine Months and Beyond", "The Purple Elephant", "Claire's Baby
Boutique" and asked for this product.  Many had ink and paper items.  They *all* said "Try Wal-Mart" to me.  I joked to one woman that I didn't mean to help Wal-Mart run her little mom'n'pop business out of business.  She said something like, "Oh honey we go to Walmart all the time too..."  This sort of thing.  Of course, it seems that the Wal-Mart nearest my apartment is staffed by about, oh, maybe 15 or 16 of every 20 employees may be black.  A few Asians, a few latinos.  not many though.  Filipino, probably somehow connected to CAFB, the county's largest employer.  very few whites work there.  just an observation.

[WalterMitty]

Ah, sh**t.  my lighter just ran out of butane.  I'll have to school you later.  Ha!  fuqua's has great big crack lighters, that reminds me.  so I'll not have to go far.

don't be a bitch.  write me back.

do they sell various other drug sundries also?

ive been in the market for a bong with a confederate flag on it.  of course i dont smoke pot, but im bound to look cool if i just leave it lying around in my car seat or something.

by the way, i was in pennsylvania the other day, i stopped in a store and they were selling cute teddy bears with a confederate flag sewn on them.  i think ive seen more confederate items in pennsylvania than any southern state. 

[J.R. Brown]

By promoting tolerance. Teaching our children how to be tolerant of other cultures. Hip-hop isn't the center of black culture, it's a part of it. The ideas of Martin Luther King and Malcolm X are part of black culture.
There are legitimate black organizations that help to advance the literacy of impoverished blacks. I think most of the negative attitudes towards education comes from people of impoverished communities where they don't have the resources neccessary to attain an adequate education. Most rap artists come from those inner city communities where education is the last thing on their minds. That's probably why that sort of attitude is present in Rap music.

Now lets say we have an average black family who lives somewhere in the suburbs and makes a sufficient amout of money to provide for their family. I don't think they'll value education any less than any suburban white family, even if them and their children enjoy hip hop.

Illiteracy and education is connected more to social class then ethnicity and culture. Unfortunately a large number of blacks are poor and lack the resources neccessary to attain an adequate education like so many other poor americans. To say that the entire black community and culture devalues eduaction is just wrong. If more people understood the connection of education to social class they would be more willing to help the poor.

I wish I could agree with you, but much of what you said is based upon the world as we'd like it to be, not as it is.

I'm not in love with the concept of "tolerance." Tolerance implies putting up with something you don't really like. I don't "tolerate" friends of other races; I like them. There is a difference.

The whole issue of tolerance for other cultures falls flat when it brushes up against reality. And here's the reality - 68% of black births are illegitimate. This has a devastating impact on education, economic status, crime rates, etc. Whole communities effectively without fathers are invariably going to be poor, violent, and without effective educational systems. "Tolerance" of this situation means lowering one's own quality of life by opening one's self up to the negative consequences of this culture, and this is something that almost nobody, regardless of political affiliation, is really willing to do. Liberals may talk a good game, but when the rubber hits the road, their behavior is no different than conservatives' behavior when it comes to this issue.

Even among successful blacks, educational standards are lower than among whites and Asians. I think you mean well, but are denying reality, when you say that on the whole, successful blacks value education as much as anyone else. Many do, but on average, the level of achievement is lower, and it is a problem.

What we're talking about is a circular problem. I don't think any of these problems are really racial in nature; they are cultural in nature, and have taken on a racial overtone due to cultural patterns. You say that poor people have a negative attitude toward education. That's true, and that's what keeps them poor, generation after generation. You should hear the stories that come from inner city schools about how kids who try to do well are tortured by the other kids for "acting white." There is a great self-destructiveness in black culture, and you're kidding yourself if you don't see it because of your politically correct blinders.

The education problem will not be solved with more money. Parents are the primary educators, and the schools in any community will be a reflection of the parents. In my state, the spending in urban districts is comparable to the wealthiest suburban districts due to massive state subsidies. There is no deliberate attempt here to shortchange blacks, as was the case in the south for so long. Hartford, with its 95% black/hispanic school system, spends more per student than Greenwich, one of the richest towns in the state. And still, the results are absolutely abysmal. One of the great scandals in Hartford is that many of the parents simply don't bother to send their kids to school on a consistent basis. If you think you can superimpose good schools on a community like this, you're kidding yourself.

I think that to solve this problem, we must first and foremost abandon political correctness and stop denying reality. As long as we tell ourselves that the answer to this problem is to promote "tolerance" and "multiculturalism," we will make no progress.

There needs to be a grass-roots effort within the black community to change the negative aspects of the culture that are hurting blacks. Charles Barkley is part of an organization that is trying to do that -- he actually said, about his fellow blacks, that "we have become our own worst enemy" and wider recognition of this is an important first step.

Beyond that, we need to change our view of the educational system to allow promising and interested students trapped in failing schools to escape. We have to drop the insistence that we can save the entire school -- we can't. We have to stop making those who could succeed pay the price for the misplaced idealism that we have been unable to implement effectively. We also have to drop the idea -- endemic to our past attempts to lift black education -- that in order to help blacks, others have to suffer. The liberal approach to education, through measures like busing, seemed to put more importance on making whites suffer than helping blacks, and this only deepened the racial divide.

I think that if we can create some positive momentum within the black community, whites will be much more willing to help. But as long as the standard black position is that other people are responsible for all their problems, and that only other people must solve them, little help will be forthcoming, and rightly so. There is nothing so futile as trying to help a person who fights any attempts to help himself, no matter what the original cause of the problem is. The original cause of the problem is irrelevant at this point. We can only escape this problem by looking forward, not backward, and acknowledging reality as it is, not as we would like it to be.

I assume you believe that white culture is and has always been supperior to other cultures.

I try not to think of everything in terms of black and white. Pertaining to culture. No culture is perfect. There will always be negative aspects and positive aspects and I try to focus more on the negative. I think what you don't tolerate is the negative aspects of black culture. I don't either, likewise I have absolutely no tolerance for the negative aspects of white culture. Once again, white culture has the same negative aspects as black culture, just in different forms. If you believe that white culture is perfect, then congratulations, you're a white supremacist.

Basically, no culture is better than any other. Try to focus more on the positive aspects of a peoples culture instead of the negative.

[beowulf]

In some manner, racism will exist all over the world far into the future, if not until the end of the world, which I hope is not so.

[dazzleman]

I assume you believe that white culture is and has always been supperior to other cultures.

I try not to think of everything in terms of black and white. Pertaining to culture. No culture is perfect. There will always be negative aspects and positive aspects and I try to focus more on the negative. I think what you don't tolerate is the negative aspects of black culture. I don't either, likewise I have absolutely no tolerance for the negative aspects of white culture. Once again, white culture has the same negative aspects as black culture, just in different forms. If you believe that white culture is perfect, then congratulations, you're a white supremacist.

Basically, no culture is better than any other. Try to focus more on the positive aspects of a peoples culture instead of the negative.

I don't like to define culture in terms of black and white.  There is mainstream culture, which is largely but not totally white, and various subcultures.  Many members of so-called minority groups subscribe mostly or at least partly to mainstream culture.

I don't believe any culture is perfect, and I recognize that there are advantages and disadvantages to each.  But I disagree with you that no culture is better than any other.  To say that ignores basic realities. 

If you're going to tell me that a culture that degrades education and accepts rampant illegitimacy (and I'm not suggesting all blacks subscribe to that culture - I know many who do not - I'm also not suggesting that a good number of whites don't subscribe to that culture) is equal to one that emphasizes family structure, educational achievement and work ethic, then I simply can't agree with you.  The results of that "culture" speak for themselves.

The problem with those who hold your philosophy is that while you expect society to give its seal of approval to ways of life that we know to be destructive, you also think that we should pick up the bill for the negative consequences of these lifestyles and cultures.  On top of that, you expect us to take all the blame for whatever problems those following this destructive culture create for themselves.  I'm not buying it.

It shouldn't be a color thing.  As I said, a good number of whites subscribe to a culture that degrades work, education and family structure, and accepts illegitimacy.  And a good number of blacks do not.  But a higher percentage of blacks than whites subscribe to that destructive culture, and that is a reality that cannot be ignored, as you are trying to do.  And let's be honest - if that ever became our dominant culture, we'd end up worse off than a third world country.  Then we'd see what happens to your canned politically correct argument that no culture is better than any other.

[J.R. Brown]

If you're going to tell me that a culture that degrades education and accepts rampant illegitimacy (and I'm not suggesting all blacks subscribe to that culture - I know many who do not - I'm also not suggesting that a good number of whites don't subscribe to that culture) is equal to one that emphasizes family structure, educational achievement and work ethic, then I simply can't agree with you. The results of that "culture" speak for themselves.

I didn't say that a culture that devalues education is equal to those that don't. I said that both black and white cultures both have positive and negative aspects, and that I focus on the positive aspects. The reason you believe I support the negative culture is because you only see the negative aspects of black culture. Look at the history of blacks in this country. They were abducted from their homeland, forced to work for nothing and them when they were finally freed they had to suffer extreme racism (lynchings, public humiliation, etc.)

Poverty. That's it. That's the answer. Poor blacks and poor whites are more likely to drop out of school, commit crimes, and do all of that other crap you were talking about. The reason why those statistics are so high for blacks is because a larger percentage of the blacks are below the povery line. Do me a favor and define black culture for me. Not just "rap", inner city culture. There's more to their culture than that. I'm starting to believe that you are making your assumptions from rap. There's more to it than that.

[dazzleman]

If you're going to tell me that a culture that degrades education and accepts rampant illegitimacy (and I'm not suggesting all blacks subscribe to that culture - I know many who do not - I'm also not suggesting that a good number of whites don't subscribe to that culture) is equal to one that emphasizes family structure, educational achievement and work ethic, then I simply can't agree with you. The results of that "culture" speak for themselves.

I didn't say that a culture that devalues education is equal to those that don't. I said that both black and white cultures both have positive and negative aspects, and that I focus on the positive aspects. The reason you believe I support the negative culture is because you only see the negative aspects of black culture. Look at the history of blacks in this country. They were abducted from their homeland, forced to work for nothing and them when they were finally freed they had to suffer extreme racism (lynchings, public humiliation, etc.)

Poverty. That's it. That's the answer. Poor blacks and poor whites are more likely to drop out of school, commit crimes, and do all of that other crap you were talking about. The reason why those statistics are so high for blacks is because a larger percentage of the blacks are below the povery line. Do me a favor and define black culture for me. Not just "rap", inner city culture. There's more to their culture than that. I'm starting to believe that you are making your assumptions from rap. There's more to it than that.

Now you've fallen on the "the behavior is bad because of poverty" argument.  I could also argue that the poverty flows from the behavior, in other words, that poverty is the result rather than the cause of certain behavior.

The right answer is probably a little of both.  This reminds me of issues in dealing with alcoholics.  Do alcoholics drink because of their problems, or does their drinking cause their problems?  Initially, probably the first, but later on, the drinking itself becomes the bigger problem, and the one that must be solved first, before the other problems can be dealt with.

It's the same thing with the race issue.  Whatever the initial cause of the behavior of the black underclass may be, the only way out is to engage in a grass-roots effort to change the underclass culture through the encouragement of personal responsibility, family structure and education.  Better indicators in these areas will provide a stronger base to solve other problems, such as persistent poverty and high crime rates.

Unfortunately, the programs designed to help blacks designed by liberals have largely done the opposite, because they have assumed and even encouraged the absence of men/fathers from black families.  In the period since we began "helping" blacks in earnest, their illegitimacy rate has gone from 25% to almost 70%.

I don't believe that all blacks are part of the underclass.  But it is highly alarming that close to 70% of black births are illegitimate.  It's very hard for me to get past that statistic.  If slavery is to blame for that, it is a severely delayed reaction, since black illegitimacy was at 25% as recently as 1965 and has skyrocketed subsequently.  This is really the decisive point, and all this beautiful talk about diversity and multiculturalism cannot obscure the reality of the devastating and catastrophic effects of this one simple statistic.  You can talk about the positive aspects of black culture all you want, but they are all washed away by this one number, and the hellish consequences that flow from it.

Blacks have effectively allowed themselves to be defined by their worst element because they are reluctant to take a stand with white people who have similar values against others in their race.  This is the greatest barrier to black progress.  I think the greatest contribution whites can make to solving this problem is to find a way to make upwardly mobile blacks feel secure enough about their position in socieyt to stop defending their self-destructive underclass.  Right now, we are caught in a terrible cycle whereby whites ostracize blacks because blacks are defined by their underclass, and blacks who don't subscribe to underclass views or behavior stand with the underclass, to their own great detriment, because they are not secure enough about their overall place in society to take a more logical and independent stance.

A case study of the Irish in America may lead the way to a solution to the race problem.  The Irish came from a backward feudal system where they were brutally exploited, much like slavery.  When they came here, they were severely damaged, living in slums.  The Irish were largely responsible for much of the crime in places like New York in the 1800s, and they were largely despised for it.  They had a weak family structure, due in large part to their huge problems with substance abuse (alcohol, in this case).  This situation paradoxically existed side-by-side with a very strong religious devotion.  Sound familiar?

The Irish came out of this mess because enough of them recognized why they were not accepted by society overall, realized that some of the reasons were valid, and sought to correct them by ostracizing their own who were bringing them a bad reputation.  That's where the term "shanty Irish" comes from - it was invented by the Irish themselves as a way to separate themselves from those in their own group who were bringing them down.

To date, blacks have largely done the opposite, epitomized by people like Jackson and fat Al Sharpton, who have an excuse for every bad thing a black person does, and who blame whites exclusively for all the problems that blacks suffer from.  There has been a faint hint of other types of thinking, from Charles Barkley and Bill Cosby, but it hasn't gone too far yet.  The answer to this problem, if it comes, will come from people like Cosby and Barkley, not Jackson and Sharpton.  The latter two can only cause a perpetuation of the current situation, and that's exactly what they want because they're both milking it.  But it's bad for the country and blacks themselves.

[jaichind]

Northern Whites seems to like Blacks as a group not as individuals.  Southern Whites seems to like Blacks as individuals not not as a group.

[angus]

ive been in the market for a bong with a confederate flag on it.  of course i dont smoke pot, but im bound to look cool if i just leave it lying around in my car seat or something.

the lighters can be used for many purposes.  for example, to demonstrate molar mass determination by displacement of water.  wouldn't want to be misinterpreted.

I would think that the majority of the patrons of fuqua's don't really want any part of nostalgia for Dixie.  I never asked though.

wal-mart, of course, had what I was looking for.  thanks again.  I support the floral-industrial complex I suppose.  Financing cruel regimes in Latin America and Holland.

No race riots in Columbus today either.  Cats are still screwing and fighting and picking through the garbage.  Filthy beasts.