Separation of Church and State (It's a long one)

[beowulf]

In March of 2005, the legislation of Mississippi passed a law allowing monuments of the Ten Commandments to be placed in public buildings.  The law also allowed for quoting of Jesus' Sermon on the Mount.  Reading that story got me thinking.  I believe it’s about time that the people, not the courts, through the elected legislation, start controlling the U.S. government.  I’m hoping that this legislation, though only on the level of one state so far, is a sign of what is to come for our country.  I’ve about had enough of this “Separation of Church and State” being in my face, and being used for discrimination against Christians.  But how many people know that the phrase, “separation of church and state”, is not in the Constitution?  That’s correct, it is not a constitutional right or power.  I'm not saying it's a bad concept, keeping the government out of the church's daily business and away from establishing a national religion.  That is actually constitutional.  What the first Amendment really says is, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."  Notice that it says establishment of religion, not tolerance of religion.  Now, I may be on my own here, but putting a monument of the Ten Commandments, a very sound and highly influential ancient law code, in a courthouse, or merely mentioning the name of God is a far, far distance from establishing a national U.S. religion! Can anyone agree with that?  I feel that when Christianity is discriminated against in this way, keeping it out whether it's reasonable or not, it is a prohibition of the free exercise of religion.  We live in a widely diverse country, where all kinds of people can speak up.  We permit people such as Ward Churchill teach in this country's universities, the kind people who disrespect their fellow citizens and country.  We allow for talent competitions such as American Idol to be featured on TV.  No one complains about people expressing themselves through music, and neither do I.  The American justice system affords due process to criminals, and provides food and shelter for even prisoners.  The American Civil Liberties Union, the cause of much distress over freedom of religion, even receives tax dollars.  There's plenty of free speech there.  However, God forbid that someone should do something in school or at work in the name of the Lord.  (Forgive the pun).  That is not right.  Anyone has every right to talk about God.  On one hand, Separation of Church and State is not always a bad thing.  It is in fact wrong to make someone believe something they don't want to.  That's why America should not establish a national religion.  But no one should have the right to share their beliefs taken away.  That is truly a violation of the First Amendment.

-beowulf

[beowulf]

What discrimination against Christians?  San Francisco elected a Catholic who talks about her faith to Congress. Do you have a g point? I'm really sick of hearing about this so-called "discrimination against Christians".  Bush Senior said that atheists shouldn't be considered citizens. That's discrimination, not this hypothetical stuff that you haven't mentioned.

Yeah, acutally, I do have a point!  Why is it that schools can talk about evolution all they won't, but even mention "intelligent design", heck no!  That would be religious.  Why do I hear of all these lawsuits where any mention of a god is just thrown away?  Why is it such a problem in this country to have a monument to a fundamental law code?  Why is it that plaques quoting the Bible had to be taken away from the park at the Grand Canyon?  The story is at http://www.reclaimamerica.org/PAGES/NEWS/newspage.asp?story=1294.  That version has a religious twist, I will warn you, but it does give a fuller story.  We are completely fine with government support of anything not religious, or even anti-religious.  That's my point.  Do you get it?

[beowulf]

And no, I don't equate atheists with anti-Christians.  I have many atheist friends.  I think this country should be open to varied belief systems, including atheism.

[beowulf]

What discrimination against Christians?  San Francisco elected a Catholic who talks about her faith to Congress. Do you have a g point? I'm really sick of hearing about this so-called "discrimination against Christians".  Bush Senior said that atheists shouldn't be considered citizens. That's discrimination, not this hypothetical stuff that you haven't mentioned.

Yeah, acutally, I do have a point!  Why is it that schools can talk about evolution all they won't, but even mention "intelligent design", heck no!  That would be religious.  Why do I hear of all these lawsuits where any mention of a god is just thrown away?  Why is it such a problem in this country to have a monument to a fundamental law code?  Why is it that plaques quoting the Bible had to be taken away from the park at the Grand Canyon?  The story is at http://www.reclaimamerica.org/PAGES/NEWS/newspage.asp?story=1294.  That version has a religious twist, I will warn you, but it does give a fuller story.  We are completely fine with government support of anything not religious, or even anti-religious.  That's my point.  Do you get it?

Evolution is a proven scientific theory. Intelligent design isn't even a scientific theory, according to the American Association for the Advancement of Science.
http://www.aaas.org/news/releases/2002/1106id2.shtml
There's nothing saying that one can't talk about non-scientific theories outside of a science class. The original pledge, as written by a clergyman, did not include "under god". Those plaques are still there. Do the Scientologists get to put up plaques too?  Every religion and cult that ever existed should get 3 plaques each at the edge of the grand Canyon.

I agree with you that we should honor all the people of our country.  But putting up plaques quoting Scripture isn't meant to exclude other people.  And I know "under god" wasn't in the original pledge.  But there are holes in the theory of evolution.  I've seen some.  But who's to say there isn't an intelligent designer too?  Evolution is a concept that, as far as human knowledge goes, pertains to life on earth.  The debate of whether or not there is or is not a creator should still be taught in schools, with openness to more than evolution.  Wouldn't you be open to discussing other possible theories to the origin of the universe in classrooms?

[beowulf]

I feel that when Christianity is discriminated against in this way, keeping it out whether it's reasonable or not, it is a prohibition of the free exercise of religion. We live in a widely diverse country, where all kinds of people can speak up. We permit people such as Ward Churchill teach in this country's universities, the kind people who disrespect their fellow citizens and country. We allow for talent competitions such as American Idol to be featured on TV. No one complains about people expressing themselves through music, and neither do I. The American justice system affords due process to criminals, and provides food and shelter for even prisoners. The American Civil Liberties Union, the cause of much distress over freedom of religion, even receives tax dollars. There's plenty of free speech there. However, God forbid that someone should do something in school or at work in the name of the Lord. (Forgive the pun).

Um, my school had a few people I knew that were openly religious.  I was friends with two of them.  Nobody discriminated against any of them.  I'm not sure what discrimination you're talking about here.

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That's just one instance.  Maybe I'm totally wrong, and religious discrimination never occurs in schools, but by what I've heard, it happens frequently.

On one hand, Separation of Church and State is not always a bad thing. It is in fact wrong to make someone believe something they don't want to. That's why America should not establish a national religion. But no one should have the right to share their beliefs taken away. That is truly a violation of the First Amendment.

Prohibiting the display of the Ten Commandments in a courthouse does not prohibit anyone from sharing their beliefs.  The only thing it's prohibiting is the government from sponsoring those beliefs by displaying what is, at the root of it, a religious document in a government-owned building.

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This may be a little off topic, but why have courthouses sworn witnesses in with their hand on a "religious document"?

Yeah, acutally, I do have a point!  Why is it that schools can talk about evolution all they won't, but even mention "intelligent design", heck no!  That would be religious.

Um, that's because it is religious.  Intelligent design is not a scientific theory, plain and simple.  Regardless of what you think of evolution - that is an entirely different matter - intelligent design makes no predictions, is not falsifiable, does not open the door towards any further discovery, and is not supported by any reproducible tests.  Furthermore, what would be the point of including it in a science class, anyway?  What do you say?  Something like, "The Bible says that God created the universe in seven days.  Okay, class dismissed"?

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It doesn't have to be the Christian God dicussed as an intelligent creator.  I think schools could make some kind of allowance for the concept of intelligent design, since it is possible.  I don't see a problem with telling students about it as a theory.  Please enlighten me.

Why is it that plaques quoting the Bible had to be taken away from the park at the Grand Canyon?  The story is at http://www.reclaimamerica.org/PAGES/NEWS/newspage.asp?story=1294.  That version has a religious twist, I will warn you, but it does give a fuller story.

I'm going to have to request a second source for this.  Anything that quotes Scripture in an article about something religious, while not automatically biased, does not do its best in my eyes of assuring me that what they're presenting is in a completely neutral point of view.  Non-religious organizations can certainly blow a religious matter way out of proportion, but religious organizations can just as equally blow something out of propotion.

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My apologies, I was unable to find a more balanced source at the time.  I hope you find that this one shows the story evenly: http://www.stevequayle.com/News.alert/03_Global/030725.scripture.returned.html

[beowulf]

http://www.newsobserver.com/news/story/2381962p-8759950c.html#1

Heres a good example of religious stupidity
"A Western North Carolina church expelled nine members this week because they refused to support their pastor's Republican views, members say."

It's a shame that a church is so closed-minded about politics.