Canadian federal election - October 19, 2015 (Official Campaign Thread)

[DC Al Fine]

Pat Martin is such a swell guy

[BigSkyBob]

I think this Bloc ad speaks for itself.

Somehow, I don't think is this an FN-type ad.

[Hatman 🍁]

At this rate, I just want this stupid deadlock to end.

Why do you hate fun?

[DC Al Fine]

Watching the French debate with translators. My main takeaway is that the moderator let the leaders walk all over her

[RogueBeaver]

No clear winner, but if I had to pick someone I'd say Duceppe.

[#TheShadowyAbyss]

It looked like May had a lot of issues with French in the debate. Obviously the debate would be good for Duceppe and it looked kind of bad for Mulcair I'd say it's a tie between Trudeau, Duceppe and Harper

[DC Al Fine]

A Winnipeg area NDP candidate has resigned over comparing Orthodox Jews to the Taliban

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

Pretty soon candidates will have to be formed ready-made from test tubes.

[136or142]

A Winnipeg area NDP candidate has resigned over comparing Orthodox Jews to the Taliban

Don't the Orthodox Jews refuse to allow women to pray at the Wailing Wall?  I'd say that's one example of them being Taliban light.

http://msmagazine.com/blog/2013/08/05/misogyny-at-the-wailing-wall/

It's actually the Ultra Orthodox, but I can completely understand a non Jew not knowing the distinction between the Ultra Orthodox and the Orthodox.  

From the article: "Here, a woman is being arrested for reading from the Torah, something men are doing freely only a few feet away."

If that isn't exactly the same as how the Taliban regard women, I don't know what is.

Here is another example, so this isn't just restricted to prayer:  Ultra-Orthodox Jewish Sect In London Bans Women From Driving
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/05/29/hasidic-ban-women-driving_n_7469744.html

The reasoning is even the same as given by the Taliban: "The letter, signed by rabbis from the Belz Hasidic sect in Stamford Hill and sent last week to parents in the community, says that female drivers are a violation of “the traditional rules of modesty in our camp."

I don't know if that represents the views of all the Ultra Orthodox Jews, but it certainly is an example of one sect having the exact same views as the Taliban.

To be sure, the Ultra Orthodox don't want to stop girls from attending school, and there are no doubt other differences between them and the Taliban, but there seem to be enough points of similarity to make the comparison completely valid.

This strikes me as the same amount of cowardice as the B.C NDP showed some 20 years ago when they dropped a candidate from running in a byelection because he was a Wiccan.

I'm not even sure had they kept him on it would have hurt the NDP even among Jews. I can speak from experience that a lot of us secular Jews and even many Orthodox Jews don't care for the religious extremism of the Ultra Orthodox Jews.  Of course much of this stems from Israel, where the Ultra Orthodox had for a long time received special treatment due to the favors they won because of the Israel form of PR.

Edit:  The former candidate, Stefan Jonasson, is a Unitarian Minister and he absolutely knew the difference between the Orthodox Jews and the Ultra Orthodox.  It was a journalist who used the two interchangeably, apparently not knowing there is a huge difference between the two.  Orthodox Jews are mainstream while most of the Ultra Orthodox are religious extremists, though I don't believe they are all sexist as this Ultra Orthodox sect obviously is.

From a comment on the Globe and Mail article on this.  This is the most up voted comment on the article:


sagavir1 1 hour ago
I'm Jewish,have spent time in Israel and taught in Jerusalem, and not only do I agree with the candidate's comparison of the Haredim with the Taliban in terms of attitudes towards women, democracy, and gays and lesbians, I encountered many Israelis who feel the same way about the Haredim. It's a very defensible comparison and I'm disappointed that the NDP did not stand by this candidate. Has the party of principle become the party of pandering?

[DavidB.]

From a comment on the Globe and Mail article on this.  This is the most up voted comment on the article:

sagavir1 1 hour ago
I'm Jewish,have spent time in Israel and taught in Jerusalem, and not only do I agree with the candidate's comparison of the Haredim with the Taliban in terms of attitudes towards women, democracy, and gays and lesbians, I encountered many Israelis who feel the same way about the Haredim. It's a very defensible comparison and I'm disappointed that the NDP did not stand by this candidate. Has the party of principle become the party of pandering?

Yeah, Jews who speak negatively about other Jews tend to be popular among many non-Jews. Always extremely revealing.

I'm sure many members of the German NPD will agree with the comments of the Canadian NDP guy. Always the same trick, considering the moronic ideas of some crazy, utterly insignificant Hasidic sect suddenly representative for all Haredim. Shows that people, both non-Jews and assimilated Jews, are still so much - unconsciously - inclined to believe negative things about Ashkenazi Jews who are not assimilated and who dress "stereotypical". Good that the guy had to step down.

More riding polls:

Mount Royal
50-27-16-7

Isn't this the most Jewish riding? I thought most Canadian Jews were Conservative?

[DL]

The Hassidim are not some tiny sect. There are large communities of them in Montreal and Toronto and in Israel they are quite a vast population and the ultra-orthodox run several political party such as Shas etc... and its a fact that women are treated like sh**t in those ultra-orthodox communities. They are forced to shave their heads and wear wigs, they are not allowed to interact with any men who aren't close relatives, they are not allowed to work or set foot outside the community, in divorce courts the man's word has 100% of the weight and the woman's has zero. These are the people who make everyone switch seats on planes because God forbid that an ultra-orthodox man might have to breathe the same air as a woman!

There are extremist sects in Islam that treat women like sh**t and there are also extremist sects in Judaism (and in just about every other religion) that treat women like sh**t. Tell me something i didn't already know.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Why are Canadian parties so bad at screening candidates? Obviously this sort of thing happens everywhere and is unavoidable to an extent (because people lie and no one has the time to check out everything about the paper candidate for Unwinnable East), but the sheer number of occurrences given the relatively small number of seats? Every election?

[DavidB.]

The Hassidim are not some tiny sect. There are large communities of them in Montreal and Toronto and in Israel they are quite a vast population and the ultra-orthodox run several political party such as Shas etc... and its a fact that women are treated like sh**t in those ultra-orthodox communities. They are forced to shave their heads and wear wigs, they are not allowed to interact with any men who aren't close relatives, they are not allowed to work or set foot outside the community, in divorce courts the man's word has 100% of the weight and the woman's has zero. These are the people who make everyone switch seats on planes because God forbid that an ultra-orthodox man might have to breathe the same air as a woman!

There are extremist sects in Islam that treat women like sh**t and there are also extremist sects in Judaism (and in just about every other religion) that treat women like sh**t. Tell me something i didn't already know.

"Hasidim" in general are not "some tiny sect", but Hasidim don't all follow the same leader. They are divided in various Hasidic groups - some of them extremely large, some of them extremely small, and then everything between those two extremes. These various Hasidic groups follow various leaders, have different customs etc. Your enumeration doesn't show much knowledge of the diversity of opinions and styles within the Hasidic world. As someone who knows this world very well, I can tell you that it is simply not true that women are "treated like sh**t" or oppressed in general, though sadly there are - mostly very insignificant, extreme, cult-like - groups in which this is different. You don't seem to understand the nuances in regard to laws regarding "get", and  many Hasidic women do actually work, mostly within their communities - and even if women don't work, then so what? In short, your comment is full of bigotry toward people with a different lifestyle and it shows a paternalistic attitude toward "the other".

It is perfectly legitimate for people not to live a Westernized lifestyle and to hold different opinions than progressives. Get over it.

[DC Al Fine]

More riding polls:

Mount Royal
50-27-16-7

Isn't this the most Jewish riding? I thought most Canadian Jews were Conservative?

Not quite. That honour goes to Thornhill, which is a safe Tory seat.

As for why the Tories aren't doing as well in Mount Royal as they are in Thornhill:

1) Mount Royal is mostly "secular Jews". Thornhill has a lot more Orthodox/Ultra-Orthodox.

2) The Liberals are running a prominent member of the Jewish community. The Tory candidate is also prominent and Jewish, but also used to lead a controversial Anglo rights party, which doesn't help with the decent sized francophone population.

I should note, that Quebec and especially, Montreal politics isn't really my strong suit. Rogue Beaver or one of the other central Canadians can probably give you a more detailed explanation.

[Phony Moderate]

Isn't this the most Jewish riding? I thought most Canadian Jews were Conservative?

Back in his day Trudeau the Elder tended to get hilariously large majorities there. I suspect the sharp rise in the Tory vote over the past decade (going from 9% in 2004 to 36% in 2011) largely comes from the Jewish community and Harper's emphasis on foreign policy and so on.

[DavidB.]

Not quite. That honour goes to Thornhill, which is a safe Tory seat.

As for why the Tories aren't doing as well in Mount Royal as they are in Thornhill:

1) Mount Royal is mostly "secular Jews". Thornhill has a lot more Orthodox/Ultra-Orthodox.

2) The Liberals are running a prominent member of the Jewish community. The Tory candidate is also prominent and Jewish, but also used to lead a controversial Anglo rights party, which doesn't help with the decent sized francophone population.

I should note, that Quebec and especially, Montreal politics isn't really my strong suit. Rogue Beaver or one of the other central Canadians can probably give you a more detailed explanation.

Got it, thanks. It seems logical that secular, well-to-do Jews in a Montréal suburb vote Liberal.

I am also interested in the Ashkenazi/Sephardi vote divide. There seem to be quite some Sephardim in Canada, often of North African descent. I assume that Canadian non-Orthodox Ashkenazim tend to be richer and more inclined to vote Liberal, this electoral tendency becoming increasingly less strong if people are more traditional/connected to Israel. Sephardim, on the other hand, seem to be less well-off, more traditional in terms of religion, and more inclined to vote Conservative. Is this true? And in what places/ridings are there big Sephardic Jewish communities? Mostly in Quebec/the Montréal area, I'd guess, since it was easier for them to integrate into a francophone society, given the countries they come from.

Back in his day Trudeau the Elder tended to get hilariously large majorities there. I suspect the sharp rise in the Tory vote over the past decade (going from 9% in 2004 to 36% in 2011) largely comes from the Jewish community and Harper's emphasis on foreign policy and so on.

Interesting!

[RogueBeaver]

What DC said. Other reasons: Housefather is more popular locally than Libman for a few reasons both provincial and municipal (Cote-St-Luc stuff, Libman's long involvement with Tremblay), plus Trudeau is more popular among Jews than Dion/Iggy. Finally, Liberals are obviously polling better than 2011.

[DL]

"Hasidim" in general are not "some tiny sect", but Hasidim don't all follow the same leader. They are divided in various Hasidic groups - some of them extremely large, some of them extremely small, and then everything between those two extremes. These various Hasidic groups follow various leaders, have different customs etc.

Yeah and so what, the same could be said of Islam which also has countless sects and that don't all follow the same leader and that have different customs - yet that doesnt stop people from stereotyping all of Islam as being backward and barbaric etc...the candidate in question was making a perfectly valid point - namely that within every religion there are extremist sects that are very oppressive towards women and sexual minorities, and that just like Islam has Taliban, there are extreme sects of ultra-orthodox Judaism that are also quite barbaric. What's the big deal? Its true!

[DL]

Mount Royal
50-27-16-7

Isn't this the most Jewish riding? I thought most Canadian Jews were Conservative?
[/quote]

Keep in mind that while Mount Royal is the second most heavily Jewish riding in Canada - it is still only 30% Jewish and the other 70% of the riding are much like the rest of west Montreal a mix of anglophone and allophones and francophones all united by an intense hatred of the Conservative party!

Most polls have the Conservatives in single digits in Montreal - so in Mount Royal - even if the Conservative candidate did well and lets' be very generous and say that he gets two-thirds of the Jewish vote and the Liberal gets one-third (I doubt if that will happen but hear me out) - that means the Tory gets 20% of all votes and the Liberal gets 10% - but then among the other 70% - you will likely see the Tory get about 10% (7%) and the NDP say 20% (14%) and the other 70% would likely go Liberal (49%). Add it all up and you get Liberal 59%, Conservative 27%.

What I actually expect in Mount Royal is that the Jewish vote will more or less split down the middle and the Liberals will beat the Conservatives among non-Jews by about a 6 to 1 margin and win the riding very easily

 

[DavidB.]

Keep in mind that while Mount Royal is the second most heavily Jewish riding in Canada - it is still only 30% Jewish and the other 70% of the riding are much like the rest of west Montreal a mix of anglophone and allophones and francophones all united by an intense hatred of the Conservative party!

Most polls have the Conservatives in single digits in Montreal - so in Mount Royal - even if the Conservative candidate did well and lets' be very generous and say that he gets two-thirds of the Jewish vote and the Liberal gets one-third (I doubt if that will happen but hear me out) - that means the Tory gets 20% of all votes and the Liberal gets 10% - but then among the other 70% - you will likely see the Tory get about 10% (7%) and the NDP say 20% (14%) and the other 70% would likely go Liberal (49%). Add it all up and you get Liberal 59%, Conservative 27%.

What I actually expect in Mount Royal is that the Jewish vote will more or less split down the middle and the Liberals will beat the Conservatives among non-Jews by about a 6 to 1 margin and win the riding very easily

Interesting, thanks.

Yeah and so what, the same could be said of Islam which also has countless sects and that don't all follow the same leader and that have different customs - yet that doesnt stop people from stereotyping all of Islam as being backward and barbaric etc...the candidate in question was making a perfectly valid point - namely that within every religion there are extremist sects that are very oppressive towards women and sexual minorities, and that just like Islam has Taliban, there are extreme sects of ultra-orthodox Judaism that are also quite barbaric. What's the big deal? Its true!

You seem to have implicitly rephrased your point: "extreme sects of" is something different than "all Hasidim". As to me, I am not considering "all of Islam backward and barbaric" and I think doing so is a gross misrepresentation of the differences within Islam, so you're barking up the wrong tree. I am not concerned about Muslims eating differently, dressing differently, slaughtering differently, praying differently. They should feel free to do so. I am only concerned about certain Islamic movements that seek to curb the freedom of other people in society, or that accept the use of violence in order to disturb society.

The most important differences between Taliban and these groups are firstly that the Taliban didn't leave alone people of a different "lifestyle", whereas these tiny Jewish sects might be radical toward its members, but they don't want to influence the lifestyle of others. Secondly, the Taliban regime was supported by many people whereas these extreme Jewish sects are insignificant in terms of adherents. Thirdly, the Taliban operated as the Afghan government whereas oppressed people in crazy sects, Jewish and non-Jewish, have the full right to leave these sects under Canadian (and American, and Israeli, and UK) law, even if it might be extremely hard to do so in practice. So while the comparison might superficially strike a chord, it is not rooted in reality and it only serves to demonize people of a different lifestyle - bear in mind that most Hasidim don't "hate women" or so. A potential representative of people adhering to many different lifestyles should know better.

[DL]

whereas these tiny Jewish sects might be radical toward its members, but they don't want to influence the lifestyle of others.

Except that I'm always reading about how in Israel these orthodox fanatics are always stoning people who drive on Saturdays and they have attacked people taking part in gay pride marches and they are constantly lobbying to ban the sale of pork and ban people from driving on the sabbath and banning non-religious marriage etc...There is a huge split in Israeli society between the secular majority and these religious freaks - and its never because anyone is trying to force the "haredim" to live a secular lifestyle. Its always because the haredim keep trying to impose their medieval form on Judaism on the whole country.

[Hash]

The last thing we need is a religion debate spinning this thread off topic. If you which to continue this discussion, do so in another thread on the appropriate board, and keep this thread on topic. Thank you.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

On a lighter note, Hasidic voting patterns are often hilarious.

[King of Kensington]

Not quite. That honour goes to Thornhill, which is a safe Tory seat.

As for why the Tories aren't doing as well in Mount Royal as they are in Thornhill:

1) Mount Royal is mostly "secular Jews". Thornhill has a lot more Orthodox/Ultra-Orthodox.

2) The Liberals are running a prominent member of the Jewish community. The Tory candidate is also prominent and Jewish, but also used to lead a controversial Anglo rights party, which doesn't help with the decent sized francophone population.

I should note, that Quebec and especially, Montreal politics isn't really my strong suit. Rogue Beaver or one of the other central Canadians can probably give you a more detailed explanation.

I would guess the Jewish population in Mount Royal is pretty similar to that in Eglinton-Lawrence: some affluent secular liberals, a lot of elderly, a lot of Orthodox Jews.  Except Mount Royal, being Montreal, would have more Sephardim.  

The more secular Ashkenazi types are probably a minority in every Montreal Jewish community except Westmount (very Liberal).  

As for the race in Mount Royal, considering that Housefather is the popular mayor of CSL with the backing of nearly every elected official in CSL and Hampstead.  I would think he's very competitive there.  And if Libman can't dominate in CSL he has no path to victory.  And as has been pointed out, Trudeau is more popular among Montreal Jews than Iggy was.

(The Conservatives got 52% in CSL/Hampstead last time BTW).

[Vosem]

Mainstreet conducted some more riding polls, this time in Manitoba and Saskatchewan.

Regina-Lewvan: Conservative 34%, NDP 28%, Liberal 17%
St. Boniface-St. Vital: Liberal 33%, Conservative 28%, NDP 21%
Saskatoon West: NDP 32%, Conservative 26%, Liberal 22%