Presidential Pardon Limitation Amendment (Failed)
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  Presidential Pardon Limitation Amendment (Failed)
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Author Topic: Presidential Pardon Limitation Amendment (Failed)  (Read 3628 times)
Senator Cris
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« on: August 11, 2015, 02:36:55 PM »
« edited: August 24, 2015, 03:22:48 AM by Speaker Cris »

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This is an idea I've had for a couple weeks now, and just decided that now is as good a time as any to try it. Can't hurt, right?

The point: the President, as it stands, can pardon almost anyone they want. This is too much unchecked power in the hands of one person. Senators can feel free to change the number if they want, but it shouldn't be too low or a coalition of like-minded parties could overturn pardons for political reasons.
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Sponsor: Citizen Leinad

Well, the Senate is already discussing changes to this article, I think we can talk about it in the other thread. What do you think?
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Leinad
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« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2015, 11:14:12 AM »

I suppose, as the sponsor, I have the authority to speak on this? (I assume I do...apologies if not...)

I think it would make more sense to talk about the two amendments in separate threads, as they are exclusively separate amendments, even though they do amend the same article.

Regarding the amendment itself, my pitch is basically there in the introduction. Checks and balances.
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Lumine
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« Reply #2 on: August 12, 2015, 12:26:48 PM »

I don't suppose we could eliminate the presidential pardon althogether, right? I advocate for more power to the executive, but that particular one is just too easy to abuse despite limitations.
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Leinad
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« Reply #3 on: August 12, 2015, 02:15:08 PM »

I don't suppose we could eliminate the presidential pardon althogether, right? I advocate for more power to the executive, but that particular one is just too easy to abuse despite limitations.

I think there's still some merit to Presidential pardons (a mechanism to correct bad court decisions without much fuss), but I wouldn't be against either lowing the number needed to overturn the pardon, or even doing away with it.

You're certainly right that it's too easy to abuse, hence this amendment.
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Kalwejt
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« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2015, 06:25:37 PM »

I don't suppose we could eliminate the presidential pardon althogether, right? I advocate for more power to the executive, but that particular one is just too easy to abuse despite limitations.

I wouldn't want to eliminate pardon per se, but Lumine's concerns does have some merit (we all remember the crap Tyrion pulled). How about transfering it to a Board of Pardons - not a permanent institution, but a designated group that would convey only when a pardon is being requested?
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Associate Justice PiT
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« Reply #5 on: August 13, 2015, 01:28:08 AM »

I don't suppose we could eliminate the presidential pardon althogether, right? I advocate for more power to the executive, but that particular one is just too easy to abuse despite limitations.

I wouldn't want to eliminate pardon per se, but Lumine's concerns does have some merit (we all remember the crap Tyrion pulled). How about transfering it to a Board of Pardons - not a permanent institution, but a designated group that would convey only when a pardon is being requested?

     Makes me think of a parole board.
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Senator Cris
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« Reply #6 on: August 13, 2015, 04:21:12 AM »

In the past months, the Senate passed an amendment that will prohibit a President to pardon himself .

Presidential pardon is a prerogative of the President, and I don't think that the legislative body should interfere. But I'm open to hear arguments in favor of a Board of Pardons.
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Prince of Salem
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« Reply #7 on: August 13, 2015, 07:04:00 PM »

Interesting idea, but I remain undecided about it.
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #8 on: August 14, 2015, 07:35:35 PM »

Who would constitute this Board of Pardons?
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Oakvale
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« Reply #9 on: August 14, 2015, 08:15:36 PM »

So what power does the President have left...?
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Fmr President & Senator Polnut
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« Reply #10 on: August 15, 2015, 05:06:01 AM »

The decision to ensure that the President cannot pardon themselves was a thoroughly sensible thing. This move is unnecessary, I won't support it.

I mean, we're virtually at the point where we're giving the Vice President more active powers than the President.
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Kalwejt
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« Reply #11 on: August 15, 2015, 05:35:30 AM »

The decision to ensure that the President cannot pardon themselves was a thoroughly sensible thing. This move is unnecessary, I won't support it.

I mean, we're virtually at the point where we're giving the Vice President more active powers than the President.

Indeed. The President must have certain active and exclusive powers. Otherwise, it's just a guy who signs or vetoes bills, and we don't need a permanent, elected rubber-stamber.
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Leinad
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« Reply #12 on: August 15, 2015, 08:41:21 AM »

I know I'm not a Senator, but I think the fact I proposed the bill allows me to briefly chime in here with a correction: this is not taking powers away from the President. Not at all. It just keeps the President from doing whatever the heck he wants with it. Checks and balances shouldn't be confused with eliminating Presidential power.

To reiterate: if this amendment, as I wrote it, passes, the President will still be able to pardon people. It's just that the pardons will be overturned if 3/4ths of all Senators (currently 8/10, to round it up) agree it was a bad decision. That means that 7 Senators can vote against the pardon, and it's not overturned! The President still has the power to pardon whoever he wants (except himself, of course), the only way out of that being if a super-supermajority of all but 2 decide to overturn it!

Hardly stripping the position of all power, as you 3 insinuated, if you ask me.
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Kalwejt
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« Reply #13 on: August 15, 2015, 02:03:10 PM »

Hardly stripping the position of all power, as you 3 insinuated, if you ask me.

I can't speak for the others, but what I meant was that right to grant pardons is the president's exclusive power and should remain so. Each branch of the government should have its specific exclusive powers, without interference from the other branches.
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Fmr President & Senator Polnut
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« Reply #14 on: August 15, 2015, 11:40:02 PM »

I know I'm not a Senator, but I think the fact I proposed the bill allows me to briefly chime in here with a correction: this is not taking powers away from the President. Not at all. It just keeps the President from doing whatever the heck he wants with it. Checks and balances shouldn't be confused with eliminating Presidential power.

To reiterate: if this amendment, as I wrote it, passes, the President will still be able to pardon people. It's just that the pardons will be overturned if 3/4ths of all Senators (currently 8/10, to round it up) agree it was a bad decision. That means that 7 Senators can vote against the pardon, and it's not overturned! The President still has the power to pardon whoever he wants (except himself, of course), the only way out of that being if a super-supermajority of all but 2 decide to overturn it!

Hardly stripping the position of all power, as you 3 insinuated, if you ask me.

I get the point, but as someone who was President for two terms, this really is not a necessary reform. If a President's pardon is to be overturned, the only body I would consider appropriate would be the Supreme Court, as it should be based on the law.
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #15 on: August 16, 2015, 12:23:32 AM »

It is not from the President Polnut's of the world that we expect history making in the realm of executive excess.

That being said, I am somewhat sympathetic to the notion of balance of powers in this case. However, assuming the VP is independently elected, would still constitute the executive branch and would even acting in a cabinet position be placed in a hierarchical structure below that of the President nad there must be some means to preserve that sort of relationship in the VP amendment.

As for the pardon power, I would still like to hear more about this pardon board and how it woul operate were it not the Senate as Kalwejt framed earlier.
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Associate Justice PiT
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« Reply #16 on: August 16, 2015, 02:15:02 AM »
« Edited: August 16, 2015, 02:18:29 AM by Senator PiT »

The decision to ensure that the President cannot pardon themselves was a thoroughly sensible thing. This move is unnecessary, I won't support it.

I mean, we're virtually at the point where we're giving the Vice President more active powers than the President.

     That would be fairly interesting, actually. It would be kind of like Texas. Realistically though, I doubt it would work well.
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Senator Cris
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« Reply #17 on: August 16, 2015, 02:39:04 AM »

The decision to ensure that the President cannot pardon themselves was a thoroughly sensible thing. This move is unnecessary, I won't support it.

I mean, we're virtually at the point where we're giving the Vice President more active powers than the President.
This.
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Kalwejt
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« Reply #18 on: August 16, 2015, 04:51:38 AM »

It is not from the President Polnut's of the world that we expect history making in the realm of executive excess.

That being said, I am somewhat sympathetic to the notion of balance of powers in this case. However, assuming the VP is independently elected, would still constitute the executive branch and would even acting in a cabinet position be placed in a hierarchical structure below that of the President nad there must be some means to preserve that sort of relationship in the VP amendment.

As for the pardon power, I would still like to hear more about this pardon board and how it woul operate were it not the Senate as Kalwejt framed earlier.

Hmm... for example a body of three members, one appointed by each branch of the government (that is President, Senate and the Supreme Court). Not a permanently working institution, conveing only when a pardon request has been made.
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #19 on: August 17, 2015, 12:10:26 AM »

The decision to ensure that the President cannot pardon themselves was a thoroughly sensible thing. This move is unnecessary, I won't support it.

I mean, we're virtually at the point where we're giving the Vice President more active powers than the President.

     That would be fairly interesting, actually. It would be kind of like Texas. Realistically though, I doubt it would work well.

Don't dog on Texas, you represent them in the Senate. Tongue
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #20 on: August 17, 2015, 12:11:34 AM »

It is not from the President Polnut's of the world that we expect history making in the realm of executive excess.

That being said, I am somewhat sympathetic to the notion of balance of powers in this case. However, assuming the VP is independently elected, would still constitute the executive branch and would even acting in a cabinet position be placed in a hierarchical structure below that of the President nad there must be some means to preserve that sort of relationship in the VP amendment.

As for the pardon power, I would still like to hear more about this pardon board and how it woul operate were it not the Senate as Kalwejt framed earlier.

Hmm... for example a body of three members, one appointed by each branch of the government (that is President, Senate and the Supreme Court). Not a permanently working institution, conveing only when a pardon request has been made.

The President gives out few pardons so it would indeed be rarely used.
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Associate Justice PiT
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« Reply #21 on: August 17, 2015, 01:20:23 AM »

The decision to ensure that the President cannot pardon themselves was a thoroughly sensible thing. This move is unnecessary, I won't support it.

I mean, we're virtually at the point where we're giving the Vice President more active powers than the President.

     That would be fairly interesting, actually. It would be kind of like Texas. Realistically though, I doubt it would work well.

Don't dog on Texas, you represent them in the Senate. Tongue

     It works for Texas. I'm just not sure it would work for us. Tongue
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Kalwejt
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« Reply #22 on: August 19, 2015, 04:24:21 AM »

It is not from the President Polnut's of the world that we expect history making in the realm of executive excess.

That being said, I am somewhat sympathetic to the notion of balance of powers in this case. However, assuming the VP is independently elected, would still constitute the executive branch and would even acting in a cabinet position be placed in a hierarchical structure below that of the President nad there must be some means to preserve that sort of relationship in the VP amendment.

As for the pardon power, I would still like to hear more about this pardon board and how it woul operate were it not the Senate as Kalwejt framed earlier.

Hmm... for example a body of three members, one appointed by each branch of the government (that is President, Senate and the Supreme Court). Not a permanently working institution, conveing only when a pardon request has been made.

The President gives out few pardons so it would indeed be rarely used.

I'm not really advocating this, since I prefer the pardoning powers to remain with the president. Just an alternative.
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #23 on: August 19, 2015, 05:06:06 AM »

So where do we stand right now. Is there anything that would garner the necessary two-thirds at this point?
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Senator Cris
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« Reply #24 on: August 19, 2015, 05:42:54 AM »

What do you think of a final vote (it's not a motion)?
I will not support this amendment.
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