Opinion of Bernie Sanders' College Plan

[Vega]

http://www.sanders.senate.gov/download/collegeforall/?inline=file

[Oldiesfreak1854]

Well-meaning, but completely impractical.

[Famous Mortimer]

We provide free high school. Given that most 4 year degrees aren't much more rigorous, I don't know why we couldn't also provide free undergrad degrees at least.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

California has sort of a compromise, where community colleges are sort of considered 13th and 14th grade, and tuition is only around $1000 a year.

[Attorney General, LGC Speaker, and Former PPT Dwarven Dragon]

Great idea, but we can't afford it.

[Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas]

The Haslam plan - two years of free community college with a certain GPA - is much more practical.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

Generally positive, tho I'm not a fan of Federal programs that use carrots to bribe the States into doing certain things.

[RFayette]

The Haslam plan - two years of free community college with a certain GPA - is much more practical.

Agreed, but I would combine that with Georgia's Hope Scholarship plan for 4 year institutions.

[muon2]

It's important to note that Sanders' plan only provides for states to offer free tuition and fees at the state universities. In many states room and board is more expensive than tuition and fees, and Sanders does not address that. A program aimed at 2-year schools avoids the housing question, since 2-year schools rely more on a commuting student population.

[The Groom]

College at Bernie's?

[ingemann]

Indy Texas are to large extent correct, but there's one element he lack, yes there's universities which are more prestigious than other in Europe, but usual you need to come from the individual countries to get it, sometime you can guess it. Let's take Denmark example, most can likely guess that Copenhagen University is the most prestigious, but what comes next? CBS, RUC, DTU, Aalborg, Aarhus, Southern Danmark or another? That's relative well known among Danes, but it's not something people abroad usual knows or cares about.

So why do people abroad don't know this, well in Denmark case because it's a small unimportant country. But why do people not talk about the Harvard of Italy, Germany or France, it this case people don't talk about those universities, because we're having this discussion in English, if this was a French language board, people would talk about the French Harvard or Oxford, or call Harvard the American version of École Normale Superieure (I'm guessing, personal I only know of École Polytechnique, but I'm not a French speaker). This doesn't mean that ENS are superior to Harvard, but for French speaking

People often forget that when we discuss something in a language (in this case English), everybody are will share a lot of knowledge about the countries where the language in question are spoken, even foreigners. But that say little about the universities in question, and more about when we speak English the degree of popular knowledge about American and British universities will be much greater than the knowledge about universities which doesn't use English as the primary working language.

[DavidB.]

Indy Texas are to large extent correct, but there's one element he lack, yes there's universities which are more prestigious than other in Europe, but usual you need to come from the individual countries to get it, sometime you can guess it. Let's take Denmark example, most can likely guess that Copenhagen University is the most prestigious, but what comes next? CBS, RUC, DTU, Aalborg, Aarhus, Southern Danmark or another? That's relative well known among Danes, but it's not something people abroad usual knows or cares about.

Hmm, I don't think there are great differences in level/prestige among Dutch universities. Sure, law faculty X at University X might be better than law faculty Y at University Y, but University Y might have a better department for medicine than University X. I'd like to talk of my alma mater as the Dutch Oxbridge, but while there might be ample reason to do so, the differences aren't nearly as huge as in other countries, which is normal in a system in which a great chunk of university financing comes from the government. The huge differences in "prestige" among American universities are simply a consequence of the fact that these universities are financed privately.

[Antonio the Sixth]

I'm pretty sure the most prestigious universities in most countries do, or are at least moving toward, offering a full curriculum of classes in English. At Sciences Po, most international students I met were only taking classes in English - and if it happens in France, that means it can happen everywhere.

[Ban my account ffs!]

Great idea, but we can't afford it.

Tim Pawlenty called...he wants his smarmy lie back.

[ingemann]

I'm pretty sure the most prestigious universities in most countries do, or are at least moving toward, offering a full curriculum of classes in English. At Sciences Po, most international students I met were only taking classes in English - and if it happens in France, that means it can happen everywhere.

Not my point, my guess are that most course are still in French at French universities, which was I said primary language of education. My point was that because WE discuss this in a English language forum, American, British and other Anglophone universities will fill more in the awareness of the average poster and rightfully so. But that doesn't mean that Harvard or Oxford necessary is more prestigious for someone in a non-Anglophone country than their own top universities or academies. As example while having a master in economy from Harvard may give a bragging bonus for someone seeking a job in Denmark, it's not necessary a good thing for someone who wish to end up in the top in a Danish ministery or even in a lot of major Danish companies, where a education at Copenhagen or Aarhus (or even Uppsala or Oslo for people in business) will usual serve them better.

[ingemann]

Indy Texas are to large extent correct, but there's one element he lack, yes there's universities which are more prestigious than other in Europe, but usual you need to come from the individual countries to get it, sometime you can guess it. Let's take Denmark example, most can likely guess that Copenhagen University is the most prestigious, but what comes next? CBS, RUC, DTU, Aalborg, Aarhus, Southern Danmark or another? That's relative well known among Danes, but it's not something people abroad usual knows or cares about.

Hmm, I don't think there are great differences in level/prestige among Dutch universities. Sure, law faculty X at University X might be better than law faculty Y at University Y, but University Y might have a better department for medicine than University X. I'd like to talk of my alma mater as the Dutch Oxbridge, but while there might be ample reason to do so, the differences aren't nearly as huge as in other countries, which is normal in a system in which a great chunk of university financing comes from the government. The huge differences in "prestige" among American universities are simply a consequence of the fact that these universities are financed privately.

I'm going to guess that's because Netherland, while dominated by Holland have always been a more decentral state than Denmark, with more old universities, I wouldn't be surprised if Germany share this trait (because of their decentral history). But I'm sure you can mention 2-4 universities which are above the bulk of other universities in Netherlands, where majority of the elite have gotten their education.

[Attorney General, LGC Speaker, and Former PPT Dwarven Dragon]

Great idea, but we can't afford it.

Tim Pawlenty called...he wants his smarmy lie back.

Uh, I don't care if Tim Pawlenty used the same or similar wording. But my sentence is nothing but the truth.

I'm well aware that Sanders does not care about the deficit whatsoever. But balancing the budget is near the top of what my priorties would be if I was an elected official. And it's not happening if we give people free Bachelor's degrees. If you have a plan to fund 4 years of free college for every american without increasing the deficit besides 'massively raise taxes', then tell me what it is. I'll give you a 5:1 ratio to work with - 5 dollars of cuts to existing government spending for every 1 dollar of tax increases.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

Great idea, but we can't afford it.

Tim Pawlenty called...he wants his smarmy lie back.

Uh, I don't care if Tim Pawlenty used the same or similar wording. But my sentence is nothing but the truth.

I'm well aware that Sanders does not care about the deficit whatsoever. But balancing the budget is near the top of what my priorties would be if I was an elected official. And it's not happening if we give people free Bachelor's degrees. If you have a plan to fund 4 years of free college for every american without increasing the deficit besides 'massively raise taxes', then tell me what it is. I'll give you a 5:1 ratio to work with - 5 dollars of cuts to existing government spending for every 1 dollar of tax increases.

Well, very few politicians actually care about the deficit. After all, the Senate recently voted 71-25 to give the military $38 million more than what the Pentagon requested. And unlike Hillary or all the Republicans except Trump, he didn't support some useless $2 trillion war.

[politicus]

It's important to note that Sanders' plan only provides for states to offer free tuition and fees at the state universities. In many states room and board is more expensive than tuition and fees, and Sanders does not address that. A program aimed at 2-year schools avoids the housing question, since 2-year schools rely more on a commuting student population.

We could offer free university for all, but doing so would dramatically alter what the "college experience" that we Americans make such a fetish of looks like.

Europeans go to university for free, but the whole affair looks very different. You're probably going to stay in the city where you grew up and live with your parents or live in an apartment with roommates not proximate to school. Your social life won't revolve around school. Campuses are rather spartan and don't have multimillion dollar fitness centers and 50,000 seat athletic stadiums. And consequently, you won't strongly identify as an alumnus of that institution later in life. Most people outside the US really don't care all that much about where they or anyone else went to college after it's over. They find our tendency to join alumni clubs and put bumper stickers on our cars quite strange - why would you care so much about something you did when you were practically still a child?

The American model - large colleges that are often located in small towns where nothing else is, everyone living on or near campus, social life inextricably linked to school, an expectation to continue to be involved with the school later in life by donating money and following the sports teams - isn't affordable or practical if the taxpayer is picking up the tab for everything.

There's also the fact that there's a much broader variance in quality/reputation of universities in the US than there is in Europe and Asia. There really are no Continental European equivalents of Harvard or Princeton, but they also don't have bottom-of-the-barrel regional state universities or our HBCU system that has a troubled history of its own. If universities are free, it's harder to translate "quality" because tuition has been removed from the equation. (Even in state university systems here, the flagship school generally has higher tuition than the less-selective satellite campuses.)

Sorbonne, Heidelberg, Göttingen.

Also, lots of European countries have universities located in small/smallish university cities, that dominates the city and attract students from far away. Lund and Uppsala in Sweden are examples.