Black mom is horrified with the confederate flag T-shirts

[Antonio the Sixth]

Not really - I'm just a simple man making my own observations, I don't claim to have any specialist insight into this matter, nor any real personal stake in it. People don't have to read my opinions, and if they do and don't like them, well, that's there business. I don't claim to be an expert. However, given that neither of us are American, neither of us lived during the Civil War or Reconstruction era, and neither of us, I presume, have any real personal stake in this matter, I don't particularly see why you should be accusing me of having an irrelevant opinion when yours is at least as irrelevant as me own.

That was my point. Your opinion is irrelevant, as is mine. The opinion of a vast group of people that has been systematically oppressed throughout US history, and still suffers from the remnants of this oppression as well as from its long-term economic consequences, is however perfectly legitimate in asking the assholes who proudly wear the symbol of one of the most vicious aspects of this oppression to kindly go f**k themselves with a jackhammer.

[The Mikado]

I'm horrified people are raising their kids to be PC, over-sensitive crybabies.

What's wrong with basic politeness and encouraging a welcoming environment? Schools aren't and never have been "free speech zones" and it's totally in the community's right to determine for itself what speech is and is not acceptable in its schools. It's the same reason students can't wear shirts advertising Budweiser or Marlboro or broadcasting gang affiliations.

At the end of the day, anyone who thinks "political correctness" is a thing to complain about or a negative doesn't have an opinion worth listening to.

[Cassius]

Here's the thing Cassius, the nation those various flags have represented have changed, morally speaking. The French have changed as a nation from the bloody tricolor days. The UK are likewise different from their slaving days, so the Union Jack has changed in meaning. Not so with the Confederacy (or more specifically the pro-Confederate culture). It has stayed the same, a vile symbol of white supremacy.

Maybe so. On the other hand, I would argue that the Confederate Battle Flag is, a lot of the time, simply a symbol of (white) southern identity and southern culture. I mean, for example, when the creators of the Dukes of Hazzard utilised a car with a Confederate flag painter on it, do you really think there main intention was to beat down and insult African-Americans? I doubt it. Also, I suppose you could argue that the 'good' done by the UK and France in more recent periods of history (although do note that both of these countries maintained colonial empires well into the 1960's, and, especially in the case of France, fought quite bitterly to hang onto them, something that I would imagine you do not approve of) washes out the 'bad'. However, to paraphrase the Rightful King, it could equally be said that a good act not wash out the bad (nor the bad the good). Whatever the Union Jack or the Tricolour are symbols of these days, the actions perpetrated under this flags continue to have effects to this very day (indeed, without the European slave trade, there would be no Confederacy as we know it, and no Confederate battle flag), some of which could be argued to be negative.

Naturally, the winners of history get to decide what their legacy is.

It is why the Allies weren't put before war crimes tribunal for firebombing Japan.

The problem for the Confederacy is that it has no saving grace. If you take out politics entirely and speak only for the honor, bravery etc etc, the problem is that it drains such endeavors of purpose. Bravery for what? Honor in the pursuit of what? The Confederacy was formed by seven states who demanded as their Constitutional Right the ability to impose slavery on the rest of the nation lest the slave population grow so large that it cannot be controlled and the salves rise up, burn the plantations and put owner's heads on pikes. People studied their classics back then and they knew of The Servile Revolts in Rome. People don't draw this conclusion as the governing motivation for the South, and therefore it muddles the message somewhat and reduces it to "South wants to keep Slaves, North says no, south secedes". When it should be "South wants to force slavery on the rest of the country, North says no, South rebels"

Four states joined the Confederacy only after the Union denied the first seven "their right to secede" in the eyes of the last four states. I might be willing to concede that VA, NC, TN and AR seceded over state's rights more so than slavery, but slavery is still the indirect cause even for them since the first seven seceded to protect slavery and they in turn seceded to protect the first seven's right to secede.

Whilst I understand, and to some extent agree with what you're saying, I would counter by saying that, whilst, in the end, the soldiers of the Confederacy were fighting to preserve a country whose society rested heavily upon slavery, and that the bravery and 'honour' (in some cases) that they showed was directed to this end, that ultimately does not take away from the fact that they did show braver and honour. To argue that the cause they were fighting for renders these things irrelevant reduces them to a bunch of mindless drones whose deaths and sacrifices were meaningless; men who are not worthy of any sort of remembrance or commemoration. Maybe I'm being rather soft, but I find that a rather callous way to look at things (not that I'm saying that's your view, per se), and, needless to say, not a particularly practical view either.

Not really - I'm just a simple man making my own observations, I don't claim to have any specialist insight into this matter, nor any real personal stake in it. People don't have to read my opinions, and if they do and don't like them, well, that's there business. I don't claim to be an expert. However, given that neither of us are American, neither of us lived during the Civil War or Reconstruction era, and neither of us, I presume, have any real personal stake in this matter, I don't particularly see why you should be accusing me of having an irrelevant opinion when yours is at least as irrelevant as me own.

That was my point. Your opinion is irrelevant, as is mine. The opinion of a vast group of people that has been systematically oppressed throughout US history, and still suffers from the remnants of this oppression as well as from its long-term economic consequences, is however perfectly legitimate in asking the assholes who proudly wear the symbol of one of the most vicious aspects of this oppression to kindly go f**k themselves with a jackhammer.

Exactly the same could be said of Native Americans and the U.S flag. But I mean, you generalise. African-Americans are not a hive mind; sure, it's probable that most have little to no sympathy for the Confederate flag. However, to claim that most would like to see this symbol aggressively expunged is perhaps a little more shaky. Of course, I would also argue that people who get jumpy at the display of a flag that has not seen any official use in 150 years, and one whose use as a symbol of unabashed white supremacy is limited to a few fringe groups that enjoy little effective popular support need to cool their jets. But, of course, that's my opinion.

[pbrower2a]

Naturally, the winners of history get to decide what their legacy is.

It is why the Allies weren't put before war crimes tribunal for firebombing Japan.

Total war.
 

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In contrast to the Nazis and Imperialist Japan, the Confederates were gentlemen.  The problem with the Confederacy was that the most fanatical supporters of slavery believed their own PR -- that slavery was a boon to the slaves. Slavery was doomed in the United States because the British model of emancipation was well suited to the United States.

We will never know what Lincoln was planning. The British solution meant that there would never be any slave revolts. Freedmen and their descendants would never become a fifth column who would serve anyone who would promise their emancipation.

Slaves commonly abandoned the plantations as the Union front came nigh. With such came the economic collapse of the Confederacy -- basically one plantation at a time. The Confederacy slowly starved.
 

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Maybe -- but the planters still dominated the political order in those states. 

[The Arizonan]

I'm horrified people are raising their kids to be PC, over-sensitive crybabies.

What's wrong with basic politeness and encouraging a welcoming environment? Schools aren't and never have been "free speech zones" and it's totally in the community's right to determine for itself what speech is and is not acceptable in its schools. It's the same reason students can't wear shirts advertising Budweiser or Marlboro or broadcasting gang affiliations.

At the end of the day, anyone who thinks "political correctness" is a thing to complain about or a negative doesn't have an opinion worth listening to.

That's actually a very good point and I haven't looked at the issue in this manner.

The flipside is that everyone is easily offended these days by small stuff. I think this is why we can have "kareoke night" on a deployment in the United States Navy, but God forbid we have "standup comedy night".

There are only forty-something days left on this deployment. Thank God.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Not really - I'm just a simple man making my own observations, I don't claim to have any specialist insight into this matter, nor any real personal stake in it. People don't have to read my opinions, and if they do and don't like them, well, that's there business. I don't claim to be an expert. However, given that neither of us are American, neither of us lived during the Civil War or Reconstruction era, and neither of us, I presume, have any real personal stake in this matter, I don't particularly see why you should be accusing me of having an irrelevant opinion when yours is at least as irrelevant as me own.

That was my point. Your opinion is irrelevant, as is mine. The opinion of a vast group of people that has been systematically oppressed throughout US history, and still suffers from the remnants of this oppression as well as from its long-term economic consequences, is however perfectly legitimate in asking the assholes who proudly wear the symbol of one of the most vicious aspects of this oppression to kindly go f**k themselves with a jackhammer.

Exactly the same could be said of Native Americans and the U.S flag. But I mean, you generalise. African-Americans are not a hive mind; sure, it's probable that most have little to no sympathy for the Confederate flag. However, to claim that most would like to see this symbol aggressively expunged is perhaps a little more shaky. Of course, I would also argue that people who get jumpy at the display of a flag that has not seen any official use in 150 years, and one whose use as a symbol of unabashed white supremacy is limited to a few fringe groups that enjoy little effective popular support need to cool their jets. But, of course, that's my opinion.

Yes, I'm sure many Native Americans feel this way about the US flag, and they would be right. An Algerian would also have good reason to be disgusted at the sight of a French flag (and wouldn't a guy wearing a French flag on his T-shirt while walking the streets of Algiers be rightfully called out as an asshole?). The difference is that France and the US, as bad as they might have been, weren't founded to the single and explicit purpose of preserving one of the vilest forms of oppression mankind has ever seen.

[madelka]

Don't feed the troll, and don't reply to the troll account...

Criss Jami — 'When you're the only sane person, you look like the only insane person.' IronFist is absolutely right. No one should care about some rednecks waving a dumb flag.

[Famous Mortimer]

I'm fine with banning Confederate flag shirts in school.

My only caveat is that I don't like this PC language about "unsafe" that we hear all the time now. It's way overused. I can't tell if this woman actually feels unsafe or if she just think it's offensive. I think just the fact that it's an inherently offensive symbol should be enough to ban it though.

[daverep]

I'm fine with banning Confederate flag shirts in school.

My only caveat is that I don't like this PC language about "unsafe" that we hear all the time now. It's way overused. I can't tell if this woman actually feels unsafe or if she just think it's offensive. I think just the fact that it's an inherently offensive symbol should be enough to ban it though.

I don't really think that there is anything "PC language" about someone saying that a flag that stands for the enslavement of their ancestors isn't exactly the hallmark of safety for them and their people.

Much more deadly than the idea of "PC culture" is the idea of a culture that exercises no discretion about the ideas within it. Free speech means that people might have different ideas about how your speech is interpreted, and are free to use that judgment to set a tone within its institutions.

No one would fuss at a kid not being able to wear a shirt that depicts grotesque violence, mass murder, porn, etc etc but because most people's ancestors weren't negatively affected by the confederacy, we feel like it's OK to say "Lighten up, you PC ninny, it's just a symbol!"

[The Arizonan]

What's wrong with free speech inside a public school (assuming you don't use it to bully or disparage a group of people)?

[dead0man]

What's wrong with free speech inside a public school (assuming you don't use it to bully or disparage a group of people)?

If it's a distraction, the courts have ruled free speech can be denied in public school....and I and most people agree with them. 


You can have your free speech in college, but you can only do it in certain zones.....and remember, nothing offensive to a protected class.  That's right out!  Keep your opinions to yourself, people didn't come here to learn about different opinions and thoughts, that might trigger emotions or something.

[Jacobtm]

What's wrong with free speech inside a public school (assuming you don't use it to bully or disparage a group of people)?

What's wrong with Free Speech?

Anything can be construed as "bullying" or "disparaging" by someone. Just allow free speech in general, let people deal with it if their feelings are too delicate to see a tshirt.

You wore a shirt with the French flag on it? Asshole, I'm Vietnamese! They colonized my country!

You wore a shirt with a dog on it? Asshole, I'm Somali! We see dogs as demons!

You wore a shirt that is pro-Palestine? I'm Jewish, You're Anti Semetic!

You wore a shirt that is pro-Israel? I'm Arab, You're Racist!

[NeverAgain]

Any clothing choices in secondary school that are disruptive to the learning environment should be banned. Secondary schools are not, and should not be, free speech zones to the extent such interferes with learning. So out go T shirts with swastikas or Confederate flags on them.

Very much this.  People should generally be allowed to wear whatever stupid sh**t they want, and the rest of us are allowed to think you're an asshole if you wear certain things.  But not at public school.