Opinion of Pope Francis
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  Opinion of Pope Francis
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Question: Opinion of Pope Francis
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Author Topic: Opinion of Pope Francis  (Read 2838 times)
Thunderbird is the word
Zen Lunatic
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« on: August 16, 2015, 12:34:10 AM »

so far a Massive FF
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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #1 on: August 16, 2015, 05:29:40 AM »

The biggest FF a Pope could possibly be.
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afleitch
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« Reply #2 on: August 16, 2015, 08:17:34 AM »

A disappointment.
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Zioneer
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« Reply #3 on: August 16, 2015, 02:16:57 PM »


To be honest, as a Pope, what more could he do?
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TDAS04
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« Reply #4 on: August 16, 2015, 03:16:53 PM »

FF for a Pope. 
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Oldiesfreak1854
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« Reply #5 on: August 16, 2015, 07:07:00 PM »

Neutral.  I don't like some of the far-left views he's taken and his support of progressive "social justice," but overall I can't give a strong positive or negative opinion of him.

BTW: Doug Batchelor's commentary on him after he became pope is almost laughable, the way he employs conspiracy theories and documents that are proven to be fake, just to support the traditional SDA eschatology.
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Goldwater
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« Reply #6 on: August 16, 2015, 08:18:17 PM »

Overrated. I guess I have to either be Catholic or a Left-winger to see the appeal.
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
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« Reply #7 on: August 16, 2015, 10:29:58 PM »

BTW: Doug Batchelor's commentary on him after he became pope is almost laughable, the way he employs conspiracy theories and documents that are proven to be fake, just to support the traditional SDA eschatology.
If one abandons the historicist eschatology with the Roman Pontiff in the role of Antichrist, then a major pillar of Adventism is knocked down.  It's why the various Millerite denominations can't abandon it.

BTW, I think I've mentioned here before my own views on the four kingdoms of Daniel, so I'll limit myself to saying that find fault with traditional Protestant historicism as being too Western centric. The fourth kingdom of Daniel 2 in my view was not Rome but the Parthian Empire, which was the last non-monotheist realm to rule Babylon.
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World politics is up Schmitt creek
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« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2015, 07:54:26 AM »

Flawed FF.
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FEMA Camp Administrator
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« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2015, 11:30:33 AM »


Yeah, I really expected him to get rid of the whole "God" thin. It's such a downer.
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DavidB.
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« Reply #10 on: August 17, 2015, 02:39:44 PM »

HP, even though he's not as left-wing as media tend to frame him.
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TNF
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« Reply #11 on: August 17, 2015, 03:18:46 PM »

HP
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Oldiesfreak1854
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« Reply #12 on: August 17, 2015, 03:28:02 PM »

BTW: Doug Batchelor's commentary on him after he became pope is almost laughable, the way he employs conspiracy theories and documents that are proven to be fake, just to support the traditional SDA eschatology.
If one abandons the historicist eschatology with the Roman Pontiff in the role of Antichrist, then a major pillar of Adventism is knocked down.  It's why the various Millerite denominations can't abandon it.

BTW, I think I've mentioned here before my own views on the four kingdoms of Daniel, so I'll limit myself to saying that find fault with traditional Protestant historicism as being too Western centric. The fourth kingdom of Daniel 2 in my view was not Rome but the Parthian Empire, which was the last non-monotheist realm to rule Babylon.
A "major pillar of Adventism"?  Last I checked, it was not part of the 28 Fundamental Beliefs.  If anyone knows of an official doctrinal statement (outside of comments I've found in Sabbath School quarterlies) on this subject, please show me.

I've heard plenty of non-Adventist scholars who agree with the traditional SDA interpretation of Daniel 2, including the identity of the Roman Empire as the fourth kingdom.  I own several study Bibles published by non-SDA sources that affirm it.  Moreover, my uncle is a Missouri Synod minister, and one of the other pastors at his church preached a sermon where he endorsed Rome as the fourth kingdom.  IIRC, one of the pastors at my local LCMS church also supports it.  Although I do agree with the Romans being the fourth kingdom, I'd be interested to see your evidence for the Parthians, based on the specific details of Daniel's prophecy.

Anyway, my real beef with traditional SDA eschatology begins with Daniel 7 and 8.  My pastor once argued that the Adventist doctrine on Daniel and Revelation is the same as what the Protestant Reformers traditionally believed.  I find that argument to be laughable, because having something be a "traditional Protestant doctrine" held by the Reformers does not make it true or biblical.  For example, many of those same reformers also believed in keeping the Sabbath on Sunday, which no true SDA (nor I) would EVER consider endorsing.  (Then again, many Adventists like to pretend that Sabbath-keeping was a major tenet of the Reformation, as evidenced by Ellen White's blatantly false claim in The Great Controversy that the Waldensians were Sabbath keepers.)

BTW: here is an article about that delves into the falsified evidence Pastor Doug uses in his discussions about the pope.
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SWE
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« Reply #13 on: August 17, 2015, 03:49:00 PM »

Nobody who leads the Catholic Church is going to be an FF.
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
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« Reply #14 on: August 17, 2015, 11:41:23 PM »

Without historicism and the treatment of the Papacy as the Antichrist, there is no basis for the doctrine of 1844 being when Jesus entered the Heavenly Sanctuary and began the Investigatory Judgment.

Rome as the fourth kingdom of Daniel 2 is pretty much the standard interpretation. Most other interpretations treat Daniel 2 as prophecy written after the fact as propaganda during the Maccabean revolt. But I personally find Rome to be an unconvincing candidate. Nebuchadnezzar never literally ruled the world, nor was it even the only large realm of its day, so the statements that he did rule the world have to be interpreted as figurative, referring to the fact that his realm was powerful enough that he bowed to no other earthly realm or ruler. Rome never controlled Nebuchadnezzar's capital of Babylon, nor much of his realm. The only sequence that preserves Daniel 2 as genuine foretelling and fits history is Neobabylonia, Medio-Persia, Greece/Seleucia, and Parthia. Then if one takes the "kingdom that will never be destroyed" as representing monotheism, the successors to the Parthians can be viewed as all part of that one kingdom.  However, it requires taking a Universalist approach, which explains why traditional Christian theologians could never accept it. However, if Christianity rather than monotheism is viewed as the kingdom that never fails, then since Christianity has never controlled Babylon nor the core of Nebuchadnezzar's realm, then Daniel 2 is a failed prophecy.
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Mr. Smith
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« Reply #15 on: August 18, 2015, 12:33:11 AM »

excellent.
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
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« Reply #16 on: August 18, 2015, 06:17:40 AM »

(Then again, many Adventists like to pretend that Sabbath-keeping was a major tenet of the Reformation, as evidenced by Ellen White's blatantly false claim in The Great Controversy that the Waldensians were Sabbath keepers.)
It's probable that she was misled by the fact that one of the names the early Waldensians were called by their opponents was "Sabbatini", but that was due to their rejection of cloth or leather shoes as unnecessary luxury and hence their practice of wearing either sandals or sabots (wooden shoes). I doubt Ellen knew any foreign languages, and even if she did, Old Occitan certainly wasn't one she learned.
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°Leprechaun
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« Reply #17 on: August 18, 2015, 07:39:07 AM »

The Dalai Lama said that if science disproved anything that Buddhism teaches, he would have to side with science. Has Pope Francis said anything like that? I doubt it.

Otherwise he seems like a nice guy, and a reformer, but I would never be Catholic or even Christian.
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Oldiesfreak1854
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« Reply #18 on: August 19, 2015, 12:59:35 PM »

Without historicism and the treatment of the Papacy as the Antichrist, there is no basis for the doctrine of 1844 being when Jesus entered the Heavenly Sanctuary and began the Investigatory Judgment.

Rome as the fourth kingdom of Daniel 2 is pretty much the standard interpretation. Most other interpretations treat Daniel 2 as prophecy written after the fact as propaganda during the Maccabean revolt. But I personally find Rome to be an unconvincing candidate. Nebuchadnezzar never literally ruled the world, nor was it even the only large realm of its day, so the statements that he did rule the world have to be interpreted as figurative, referring to the fact that his realm was powerful enough that he bowed to no other earthly realm or ruler. Rome never controlled Nebuchadnezzar's capital of Babylon, nor much of his realm. The only sequence that preserves Daniel 2 as genuine foretelling and fits history is Neobabylonia, Medio-Persia, Greece/Seleucia, and Parthia. Then if one takes the "kingdom that will never be destroyed" as representing monotheism, the successors to the Parthians can be viewed as all part of that one kingdom.  However, it requires taking a Universalist approach, which explains why traditional Christian theologians could never accept it. However, if Christianity rather than monotheism is viewed as the kingdom that never fails, then since Christianity has never controlled Babylon nor the core of Nebuchadnezzar's realm, then Daniel 2 is a failed prophecy.
What's interesting is that there is an SDA hymn about Daniel 2 titled "Look for the Waymarks." It was written by Franklin Belden (Ellen White's nephew), but as it lists the four kingdoms in the second verse, it identifies the head of gold as Assyria rather than Babylon.  I don't understand that, especially since Daniel states explicitly that Babylon and King Nebuchadnezzar were represented.  I don't especially care to sing most SDA hymns because I feel like the make the denomination more exclusionary, but this on actually bothers me because of that line.  (On a related note, "We Are Nearing Home" has a line in the third verse that implies salvation by works and that faith is insufficient for salvation, which is why that one bothers me as well.)

To my knowledge, Millerites as a whole do not hold to the Investigative Judgment; only SDAs do.  The horns of Daniel 7 and 8 are two separate prophecies, which is the main error I believe William Miller and the early Adventists made in the Great Disappointment (aside from relying on the KJV's inaccurate translation of Daniel 8:14 as "days" rather than "evenings and mornings").  When you read further in Daniel 8, it implies that the horn of that chapter is a Greek king, which points to the traditional identity of the horn as Antiochus IV Epiphanes.  (Adventists love to refute that by claiming that Antiochus never became "exceedingly great," but I think that's a pointless debate over semantics that depends entirely on how you define "exceedingly great.")  Furthermore, Adventists seem to interpret the heavenly sanctuary of Hebrews as being a literal, physical place, something that is based purely on assumption.  I personally understand that the sanctuary is not a place in heaven, but heaven itself.  I have yet to see any sound exegesis that supports the Investigative Judgment; the fact that I never seem to get a straight answer on what it is makes me doubt its validity as a doctrine.

As for your argument that traditional interpretation is false, keep in mind that no kingdom or empire has ever ruled the ENTIRE world, just most of the known world.  I think the prophecy was meant to focus more on the nations that ruled over the Hebrews than the nations that ruled the Babylonians.  While I agree that historicism is generally too Western-centric, I do not see any examples of that in the traditional interpretation of Daniel 2.  Personally, I believe that the Romans are the best candidate for the fourth kingdom if you consider Christianity as the kingdom that never fails (as I do), because Jesus came and lived during the Roman occupation of the Holy Land.  Whether Christianity has controlled the Holy Land or the region once ruled by Babylon is irrelevant, because the prophecy is meant to state that the final kingdom will rule over the entire world (not just specific regions), bringing an end to all kingdoms before it.  Of course, you have every right to disagree with me; I'm just giving my side of the story.
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
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« Reply #19 on: August 19, 2015, 08:37:05 PM »

I can only guess why that hymn uses Assyria rather than Babylon, but scansion likely is a reason since Assyria is four syllables while Babylon is three.

While only the SDA has the IJ, all the Millerite sects I'm aware of depend upon historicism in their theology.

Since the dream of Daniel 2 was initially given to Nebuchadnezzar, I consider Babylonians and not the Israelites to be the focus. Besides, the fourth kingdom is described as being weakened by internal division. That certainly does not describe Rome in the time of Jesus. Also the transitions between the Neobabylonians, the Medo-Persians, and the Greeks were all fairly sharp and quick. Rome's rise was gradual, so it's hard to see the Greco-Roman temporal boundary as corresponding to the division between bronze and iron. By contrast, the Parthian supplantation of the Greek Seleucids was quick, but they suffered from division for some time before being smashed by the Sassanids.
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Oldiesfreak1854
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« Reply #20 on: August 20, 2015, 03:21:38 PM »
« Edited: August 20, 2015, 03:24:38 PM by Oldiesfreak1854 »

(Then again, many Adventists like to pretend that Sabbath-keeping was a major tenet of the Reformation, as evidenced by Ellen White's blatantly false claim in The Great Controversy that the Waldensians were Sabbath keepers.)
It's probable that she was misled by the fact that one of the names the early Waldensians were called by their opponents was "Sabbatini", but that was due to their rejection of cloth or leather shoes as unnecessary luxury and hence their practice of wearing either sandals or sabots (wooden shoes). I doubt Ellen knew any foreign languages, and even if she did, Old Occitan certainly wasn't one she learned.
I doubt she knew any foreign languages too, which raises the question in my mind: how can she be considered a prophet if she didn't even know the original languages that the Bible was written in?

I can only guess why that hymn uses Assyria rather than Babylon, but scansion likely is a reason since Assyria is four syllables while Babylon is three.
But then that completely contradicts the interpretation that Daniel gave Nebuchadnezzar.  The original line says, "First the Assyrian kingdom ruled the world." 
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
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« Reply #21 on: August 21, 2015, 12:20:29 AM »

Well, Neo-Assyria did predate Neo-Babylon and was the first Mesopotamian realm to expand well beyond Mesopotamia, so it's not a total failure to say it was the first to rule the world, just a failure in follow Daniel 2, assuming that's what that hymn is supposed to do.
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Figueira
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« Reply #22 on: September 04, 2015, 02:57:08 PM »

A good example of why it's hard to divide people into "Freedom Fighters" and "Horrible People."
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Amenhotep Bakari-Sellers
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« Reply #23 on: September 20, 2015, 10:30:27 AM »

Brought the Church back to days of Pope John Paul, normalcy, after sex abuse crisis. Exemplify what St Peter was about.
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All Along The Watchtower
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« Reply #24 on: September 20, 2015, 11:13:17 AM »

FF in context. 
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