Israel to Refugees: Go Back to Africa or Go to Prison

[DavidB.]

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You don't seem to understand that I myself, as a Jew in a big European city (which is not the same as in America), am forced to be in the minority. Talk about "privilege"? What "privilege" do I have by not being able to walk through my own multicultural, poor neighborhood with a yarmulke, or with my necklace with a magen david, without the chance of being harassed by groups of teenage guys hanging around, without feeling self-conscious all the time? That I don't notice people's strange, often hostile looks when I do wear my necklace or my kippa outside my neighborhood? And I'm quite a tough, strong guy, while many in my community aren't. Not complaining about this, just pointing out some basic facts.

Obviously I understand the urge many Jews have to show solidarity with other people who are (deemed) oppressed. And I'll stand by other oppressed people, provided that they don't hate me for who I am. But I get the impression some people think everything is A-OK with Jews now, and we can "move on to other oppressed groups" or something like that. That's not the case. Israel is continuously under attack: Hamas' anti-Semitism is not something that could have targeted any nation, it's a typical anti-Jewish thing, just the same as when the nazis wanted to wipe us out. Meanwhile, the situation in Europe is becoming insufferable for many Jews - just look at the aliyah rates from France.

I don't understand how a Jew could forget that the Shoa was not about discriminating some random minority, it was actually about discriminating Jews. That the pogroms and the ghettos weren't just policies against some random minority, it was actually about discriminating and killing Jews. We need to stand together, because the anti-Semitic poison hasn't magically gone away, it still exists and it's becoming worse and worse. However, nowadays, for many "cosmopolitan" Jews who lack any understanding of (and pride in) the precious heritage of their people, when it comes to making priorities, other Jews come last. And that's what I don't get. If we don't stand with each other, then absolutely nobody will stand with us, which is even clear here in Europe. I totally understand if people think that there should be a two-state solution in the interest of Israel and blah blah blah, even if I totally disagree with it. But I don't understand if people simply don't care about Jewish pain, about Jewish lives, about Jewish rights, or even actively try to deny their fellow Jews basic rights.

[ag]

You deserve a medal for your posts here ag, you've summed up exactly how I feel about Israel and my personal, complicated relationship with my own Jewry.

Just out of curiosity what is your relationship with your Judaism (not Jewry, that's a collective noun), and what makes it complicated?

Well, all of the controversy seems to come from that nasty little country that I have no connection to yet am somehow expected to have unquestionable loyalty to by many.

You're strawmanning, but more importantly you basically admitted you don't have a relationship with Judaism.

It is a different relationship from yours, most definitely.

[traininthedistance]

You must be logged in to read this quote.

You don't seem to understand that I myself, as a Jew in a big European city (which is not the same as in America), am forced to be in the minority. Talk about "privilege"? What "privilege" do I have by not being able to walk through my own multicultural, poor neighborhood with a yarmulke, or with my necklace with a magen david, without the chance of being harassed by groups of teenage guys hanging around, without feeling self-conscious all the time? That I don't notice people's strange, often hostile looks when I do wear my necklace or my kippa outside my neighborhood? And I'm quite a tough, strong guy, while many in my community aren't. Not complaining about this, just pointing out some basic facts.

Obviously I understand the urge many Jews have to show solidarity with other people who are (deemed) oppressed. And I'll stand by other oppressed people, provided that they don't hate me for who I am. But I get the impression some people think everything is A-OK with Jews now, and we can "move on to other oppressed groups" or something like that. That's not the case. Israel is continuously under attack: Hamas' anti-Semitism is not something that could have targeted any nation, it's a typical anti-Jewish thing, just the same as when the nazis wanted to wipe us out. Meanwhile, the situation in Europe is becoming insufferable for many Jews - just look at the aliyah rates from France.

I don't understand how a Jew could forget that the Shoa was not about discriminating some random minority, it was actually about discriminating Jews. That the pogroms and the ghettos weren't just policies against some random minority, it was actually about discriminating and killing Jews. We need to stand together, because the anti-Semitic poison hasn't magically gone away, it still exists and it's becoming worse and worse. However, nowadays, for many "cosmopolitan" Jews who lack any understanding of (and pride in) the precious heritage of their people, when it comes to making priorities, other Jews come last. And that's what I don't get. I totally understand if people think that there should be a two-state solution in the interest of Israel and blah blah blah, even if I totally disagree with it. But I don't understand if people simply don't care about Jewish pain, about Jewish lives, about Jewish rights, or actively try to deny their fellow Jews basic rights.

The awful level of anti-Semitism in Europe (and that, similarly, gets smuggled in under cover of other concerns in some corners of the left) is precisely what I was thinking about when I said that ag is missing some important details.  I completely respect how your experience there could lead to the sorts of views you have.  Of course, just because a group is oppressed in some arenas doesn't mean they can't also be the oppressor in others.  The world is a large and complicated place.  

I guess I should probably confess that I'm not actually Jewish.  I merely share my life with someone who is.  And, in the unlikely case I ever have children, they will be.

[ag]

You must be logged in to read this quote.

You don't seem to understand that I myself, as a Jew in a big European city (which is not the same as in America), am forced to be in the minority. Talk about "privilege"? What "privilege" do I have by not being able to walk through my own multicultural, poor neighborhood with a yarmulke, or with my necklace with a magen david, without the chance of being harassed by groups of teenage guys hanging around, without feeling self-conscious all the time? That I don't notice people's strange, often hostile looks when I do wear my necklace or my kippa outside my neighborhood? And I'm quite a tough, strong guy, while many in my community aren't. Not complaining about this, just pointing out some basic facts.

Obviously I understand the urge many Jews have to show solidarity with other people who are (deemed) oppressed. And I'll stand by other oppressed people, provided that they don't hate me for who I am. But I get the impression some people think everything is A-OK with Jews now, and we can "move on to other oppressed groups" or something like that. That's not the case. Israel is continuously under attack: Hamas' anti-Semitism is not something that could have targeted any nation, it's a typical anti-Jewish thing, just the same as when the nazis wanted to wipe us out. Meanwhile, the situation in Europe is becoming insufferable for many Jews - just look at the aliyah rates from France.

I don't understand how a Jew could forget that the Shoa was not about discriminating some random minority, it was actually about discriminating Jews. That the pogroms and the ghettos weren't just policies against some random minority, it was actually about discriminating and killing Jews. We need to stand together, because the anti-Semitic poison hasn't magically gone away, it still exists and it's becoming worse and worse. However, nowadays, for many "cosmopolitan" Jews who lack any understanding of (and pride in) the precious heritage of their people, when it comes to making priorities, other Jews come last. And that's what I don't get. I totally understand if people think that there should be a two-state solution in the interest of Israel and blah blah blah, even if I totally disagree with it. But I don't understand if people simply don't care about Jewish pain, about Jewish lives, about Jewish rights, or actively try to deny their fellow Jews basic rights.

The awful level of anti-Semitism in Europe (and that, similarly, gets smuggled in under cover of other concerns in some corners of the left) is precisely what I was thinking about when I said that ag is missing some important details.

It would not have been a detail - if it were true.

Of course, I am not claiming there is no anti-semitism in Europe: but, as minorities go, my fellow tribesmen these days are a protected one. In any case, there is no way of fighting anti-semitism without fighting other kinds of xenophobia.

[Horus]

I think I've posted this before, but it's the most recent poll I can find on worldwide antisemitism. It's by the ADL, but even they will quietly admit that the percentage of people identifying as antisemitic is at its lowest level in recorded history. This is not to say there aren't some countries (Hungary) where it is most certainly increasing, but the narrative of a global antisemitic comeback is highly misleading.

http://global100.adl.org/

Edit: According to the survey's update, antisemitism in France dropped 20% between 2014 and 2015.

[ag]

I know I shouldn't bite or feed the troll, but f**k you.

I thought you have put me on ignore.

In  any case, I do not think I would take your opinion of what constitutes a decent human being to heart, as you seem to have only a vague hearsay acquaintance with the notion.

[MalaspinaGold]

You deserve a medal for your posts here ag, you've summed up exactly how I feel about Israel and my personal, complicated relationship with my own Jewry.

Just out of curiosity what is your relationship with your Judaism (not Jewry, that's a collective noun), and what makes it complicated?

Well, all of the controversy seems to come from that nasty little country that I have no connection to yet am somehow expected to have unquestionable loyalty to by many.

You're strawmanning, but more importantly you basically admitted you don't have a relationship with Judaism.

I don't have a relationship with Israel. Is your definition of Judaism determined solely on how one views Israel?

In fact, no. I asked you specifically what is your relationship with Judaism. You mumbled something about standing up to Israel. That may be your legitimate view, but that doesn't indicate a relationship to Judaism. Lots of people don't like Israel; doesn't mean they're all Jews.

Also, DavidB, please clarify what you meant when you said you're not white. I'm genuinely interested.

[Хahar 🤔]

Israel is continuously under attack: Hamas' anti-Semitism is not something that could have targeted any nation, it's a typical anti-Jewish thing, just the same as when the nazis wanted to wipe us out.

This is the sort of thing that requires a citation.

[ag]

Israel is continuously under attack: Hamas' anti-Semitism is not something that could have targeted any nation, it's a typical anti-Jewish thing, just the same as when the nazis wanted to wipe us out.

This is the sort of thing that requires a citation.

The guy has never heard of the "kill a Turk" joke.  It is a good one, though, so I think I should tell it. Dates to WWI, actually.

A Jewish mother is seeing her son off into the Russian army. So, she tells him not to work too hard: "Do not get tired, dear; you know, kill a Turk - and take a rest, relax a bit; kill a Turk - and take a rest". The boy then asks: "Mommy, but what should I do if the Turk tries to kill me while I am relaxing?" Which, of course, takes the mother by surprize: "Why would he try to kill you? What have you done to him?"

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

You must be logged in to read this quote.

You don't seem to understand that I myself, as a Jew in a big European city (which is not the same as in America), am forced to be in the minority. Talk about "privilege"? What "privilege" do I have by not being able to walk through my own multicultural, poor neighborhood with a yarmulke, or with my necklace with a magen david, without the chance of being harassed by groups of teenage guys hanging around, without feeling self-conscious all the time? That I don't notice people's strange, often hostile looks when I do wear my necklace or my kippa outside my neighborhood? And I'm quite a tough, strong guy, while many in my community aren't. Not complaining about this, just pointing out some basic facts.

Obviously I understand the urge many Jews have to show solidarity with other people who are (deemed) oppressed. And I'll stand by other oppressed people, provided that they don't hate me for who I am. But I get the impression some people think everything is A-OK with Jews now, and we can "move on to other oppressed groups" or something like that. That's not the case. Israel is continuously under attack: Hamas' anti-Semitism is not something that could have targeted any nation, it's a typical anti-Jewish thing, just the same as when the nazis wanted to wipe us out. Meanwhile, the situation in Europe is becoming insufferable for many Jews - just look at the aliyah rates from France.

I don't understand how a Jew could forget that the Shoa was not about discriminating some random minority, it was actually about discriminating Jews. That the pogroms and the ghettos weren't just policies against some random minority, it was actually about discriminating and killing Jews. We need to stand together, because the anti-Semitic poison hasn't magically gone away, it still exists and it's becoming worse and worse. However, nowadays, for many "cosmopolitan" Jews who lack any understanding of (and pride in) the precious heritage of their people, when it comes to making priorities, other Jews come last. And that's what I don't get. If we don't stand with each other, then absolutely nobody will stand with us, which is even clear here in Europe. I totally understand if people think that there should be a two-state solution in the interest of Israel and blah blah blah, even if I totally disagree with it. But I don't understand if people simply don't care about Jewish pain, about Jewish lives, about Jewish rights, or even actively try to deny their fellow Jews basic rights.

This is what I most dislike about many Jews who play the Holocaust card. They often ignore the fact that they were not the only minority target of the Nazis, merely the most numerous. The Nazis were just as vicious to the Romani, and if one must use ethnic specific terms for particular Nazi genocides, the Porajmos was proportionally at least as destructive as the Shoah. I know that if one had the option of choosing between being a Jew or a Roma in Europe today, one would be much better off as a Jew.

Then of course, there's the more general problem with using the Holocaust to explain away what Israel does to the Arabs in its midst. Two wrongs don't make a right, even when the Palestinians add a third wrong.

[Orthogonian Society Treasurer]

[DavidB.]

picture of immigrants

Regardless of one's opinion on African immigrants in Israel, you're aware that this Facebook page is run by crazy "traditionalists" who believe that "the Jews" have successfully conspired to inflict mass immigration on Western Europe in order to destroy "native European" cultures? That this page is run by people who think "white genocide" is an actual thing (and that "racism" is a code word for "anti-white"), and accuse Jews of spreading "cultural marxism"? That "the Jews" are pro-immigration everywhere, in order to make the "European race" weaker, but not in Israel? Essentially, these are the people who happen to make me seriously consider agreeing with Antonio, at least for a few seconds or so.

[Orthogonian Society Treasurer]

picture of immigrants

Regardless of one's opinion on African immigrants in Israel, you're aware that this Facebook page is run by crazy "traditionalists" who believe that "the Jews" have successfully conspired to inflict mass immigration on Western Europe in order to destroy "native European" cultures? That this page is run by people who think "white genocide" is an actual thing (and that "racism" is a code word for "anti-white"), and accuse Jews of spreading "cultural marxism"? That "the Jews" are pro-immigration everywhere, in order to make the "European race" weaker, but not in Israel? Essentially, these are the people who happen to make me seriously consider agreeing with Antonio, at least for a few seconds or so.

At this point in time Israel has not yet learned how to be multicultural. And I think Europeans are going to be part of the throes of that transformation, which must take place. Israel is not going to be the monolithic Jewish society it once was in the last century. Europeans are going to be at the centre of that. It’s a huge transformation for Israel to make. They are now going into a multicultural mode and Europeans will be resented because of their leading role. But without that leading role and without that transformation, Israel will not survive.

[DavidB.]

picture of immigrants

Regardless of one's opinion on African immigrants in Israel, you're aware that this Facebook page is run by crazy "traditionalists" who believe that "the Jews" have successfully conspired to inflict mass immigration on Western Europe in order to destroy "native European" cultures? That this page is run by people who think "white genocide" is an actual thing (and that "racism" is a code word for "anti-white"), and accuse Jews of spreading "cultural marxism"? That "the Jews" are pro-immigration everywhere, in order to make the "European race" weaker, but not in Israel? Essentially, these are the people who happen to make me seriously consider agreeing with Antonio, at least for a few seconds or so.

At this point in time Israel has not yet learned how to be multicultural. And I think Europeans are going to be part of the throes of that transformation, which must take place. Israel is not going to be the monolithic Jewish society it once was in the last century. Europeans are going to be at the centre of that. It’s a huge transformation for Israel to make. They are now going into a multicultural mode and Europeans will be resented because of their leading role. But without that leading role and without that transformation, Israel will not survive.

Okay, if you genuinely want to be the guy who thinks it's funny to echo stupid things from an anti-Semitic Facebook page, it's time to put you on ignore. Buh-bye, crazy racist.

[MalaspinaGold]

LOL calling Israel monolithic.