Europe-Middle East-Africa Refugee Crisis General Thread

[Filuwaúrdjan]

This is the end of Europe as we know it. Get ready to say goodbye to the continent of the Renaissance and the Enlightenment. In 60 years or so Europe, save for its eastern fringes, will be what Syria is today.

Seventy years ago Europe had just played host to both the worst war and the worst crime in history. And we did that all by our little white selves.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Don't worry, they are seeing it. But they are leading Europe into the abyss with their eyes wide open. In their quest to transform Europe into an impoverished wasteland like Syria and Africa ...

Tender, you're starting to sound like a Nazi and that's not a good look for an Austrian.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

A very relevant video

[ingemann]

Okay people take a deep breath and relax. We're not on the way to turn Europe into Syria, CAR or another wartorn hell hole. There's not enough of these refugees, not even if all of them fled to Europe tomorrow.

That doesn't mean that I think this is good news, the influx of these people are bad for our way of life, but that because this influx may force major cuts in our welfare states and we have to deal with increased criminality, poverty and violence, but at no time have I feared for the European states as national states, just because of the influx of less than a million people annual. Of course it's really bad news if you're a Jew living in a major European city, but for the rest of us we're not under any kind of existential threat, the worst case are just that our future will be a little sh**ttier.

[DavidB.]

Sibboleth's replies are pretty illustrative for the tactics on the emotional side of the debate. If one doesn't think it is good for Germany to take in a whopping 800,000 immigrants, 1% of its population, then one must be a nazi. I, for one, don't think Helsinkian or Tender said unreasonable things, and your remark to Helsinkian regarding Europeans being white is a strawman, for he never argued along the lines of "race".

If nationalism is on the rise, I will be seen as a foreigner too. Many nationalists don't want me to be in Europe either, and I see enough disgusting Facebook pages to prove this over and over again. So it's not at all the case that I'm in bed with the extremist loudmouths, whom I absolutely loathe. However, it is simply not unreasonable for people to have second thoughts about taking in massive numbers of refugees and "refugees" (because no, an IT worker from Lahore is not a real refugee). Yes, we are all looking for happiness and a better life, but taking in tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands of people from countries with a radically different culture will inevitably have negative consequences. Emotional photos might make people forget about reality, and there might be a window of opportunity for politicians to push forward ill-advised policies just to look "humane", but eventually people will have to live with the results of these policies - and these results might not be that positive for Europe, rendering our societies even more polarized.

[politicus]

The forum will never be the same after this thread.

[ag]

The forum will never be the same after this thread.

I am afraid so. Very difficult to talk banalities with people you despise so much.

[politicus]

The forum will never be the same after this thread.

I am afraid so. Very difficult to talk banalities with people you despise so much.

Yeah, I have often wondered why you stick around.

[ag]

The forum will never be the same after this thread.

I am afraid so. Very difficult to talk banalities with people you despise so much.

Yeah, I have often wondered why you stick around.

I am no longer talking banalities.

[Lief 🗽]

My god, has this place always been crawling with neo nazis and racists?! Old Atlas really has gone down the tubes it seems.

[SUSAN CRUSHBONE]

Yeah, a 21-year old computer operator is definitely the person who should apply for asylum in Central Europe, coming from "war-torn" Lahore, Pakistan ...

Guy would probably be better off somewhere in India ...

maybe he's gay, or insufficiently muslim, or who knows what else. there are plenty of different reasons why a pakistani person might need asylum. (not that you'll care, most likely, being the gross bigot that you are)

[Edu]

Sibboleth's replies are pretty illustrative for the tactics on the emotional side of the debate.

Wow, after reading what Tender and the Finnish dude said I'm surprised you got the nerve to write that.

Oh wait, I'm not surprised.

[Hnv1]

My god, has this place always been crawling with neo nazis and racists?! Old Atlas really has gone down the tubes it seems.

Labeling isn't helpful either, I think it's legitimate European people have some concern regarding a large torrent of immigration and being wary about its impacts does not make racist by any means. It's not really a black and white situation and naming is far from helpful in conducting a reasonable debate

[ag]

My god, has this place always been crawling with neo nazis and racists?! Old Atlas really has gone down the tubes it seems.

Labeling isn't helpful either, I think it's legitimate European people have some concern regarding a large torrent of immigration and being wary about its impacts does not make racist by any means. It's not really a black and white situation and naming is far from helpful in conducting a reasonable debate

And this is what we are getting from the Israeli left.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Sibboleth's replies are pretty illustrative for the tactics on the emotional side of the debate. If one doesn't think it is good for Germany to take in a whopping 800,000 immigrants, 1% of its population, then one must be a nazi.

Did I make this argument? Let's see... wait... no... it appears that I didn't.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

maybe he's gay, or insufficiently muslim, or who knows what else. there are plenty of different reasons why a pakistani person might need asylum. (not that you'll care, most likely, being the gross bigot that you are)

Yes, it isn't exactly a happy country at present. Christian would be another possibility, of course, or a member of one of the less popular Muslim sects. And LOL at the idea that this guy could go to India. That's dark.

[Famous Mortimer]

Wonder what all these Air BnBers are going to do when they realize these refugees are never going to return to their homeland.

[TheDeadFlagBlues]

Sibboleth's replies are pretty illustrative for the tactics on the emotional side of the debate. If one doesn't think it is good for Germany to take in a whopping 800,000 immigrants, 1% of its population, then one must be a nazi. I, for one, don't think Helsinkian or Tender said unreasonable things, and your remark to Helsinkian regarding Europeans being white is a strawman, for he never argued along the lines of "race".

If nationalism is on the rise, I will be seen as a foreigner too. Many nationalists don't want me to be in Europe either, and I see enough disgusting Facebook pages to prove this over and over again. So it's not at all the case that I'm in bed with the extremist loudmouths, whom I absolutely loathe. However, it is simply not unreasonable for people to have second thoughts about taking in massive numbers of refugees and "refugees" (because no, an IT worker from Lahore is not a real refugee). Yes, we are all looking for happiness and a better life, but taking in tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands of people from countries with a radically different culture will inevitably have negative consequences. Emotional photos might make people forget about reality, and there might be a window of opportunity for politicians to push forward ill-advised policies just to look "humane", but eventually people will have to live with the results of these policies - and these results might not be that positive for Europe, rendering our societies even more polarized.

Oh the irony...

Yes, I would certainly claim that stringent opposition to an influx of refugees that constitutes ~1% of any nation-state's population demonstrates some sort of narrow-minded, ultra-nationalistic sentiment that's reminiscent of Nazism or fascism or whatever. Remember, the operative word is "stringent". There may be reason to oppose that scale of immigration for prudential reasons but I'd argue that those reasons would be highly contingent upon some sort of context that would tend to lead to softer opposition. I've seen no evidence for that. It seems to me that y'all would be stringently opposed to 1/5th or 1/10th of that number of refugees entering your country.

I also think it's ironic that you posit that an IT worker from Lahore cannot be a refugee. Note: it's a bit perverse to use an IT worker from Lahore as an example because most refugees are clearly from war-torn Afghanistan, Syria or Iraq or Libya but I'll humor you. Why do I think your claim is ironic? I think it's ironic because the contemporary movements of Jews from France to Israel are oftentimes framed as refugees moving to Israel. Now, I don't think there's anything particularly wrong with this narrative but I think that the categorization of people between "migrants" and "refugees" necessitates the utmost caution. It's not an easy distinction and I'd argue that it would be far better to be liberal when categorizing people as refugees or migrants.

In short: I don't think it's for you to say that an IT worker from Lahore cannot be a refugee. This hypothetical person could be fleeing from discrimination based on sexual orientation or religious discrimination or a vendetta etc. I'd hope that I could achieve refugee status if I feared for my life for particular reasons that went beyond a more generalized famine or genocide.

edit: I've got something to say about your claim that the pro-refugee side is "emotional". There's a difference between "sentiments" and "ethics". I believe that it's unethical to avoid accommodating refugees.  This statement can either be cold and impersonal or warm and filled with emotions. Either way, it's founded upon an idea about what is "right" and what is "wrong"; some idea of morality. Most would say that this kind of claim is inherently founded upon "reason", that you cannot make these statements without some sort of basis founded upon reason.

[Famous Mortimer]

Jews from France who claim to be refugees in Israel are idiots.

[DavidB.]

but I'll humor you. Why do I think your claim is ironic? I think it's ironic because the contemporary movements of Jews from France to Israel are oftentimes framed as refugees moving to Israel. Now, I don't think there's anything particularly wrong with this narrative but I think that the categorization of people between "migrants" and "refugees" necessitates the utmost caution. It's not an easy distinction and I'd argue that it would be far better to be liberal when categorizing people as refugees or migrants.

I don't think I have ever said that Jews from France should be considered refugees (even though I think they might be), so you literally brought up this topic yourself and I'm not sure why you are attacking me on that.

Well, I actually do think I know why: because you want to be provocative. This is just trolling, and that makes me unwilling to discuss the rest of your post, because I think it's a bit low to try and play that game with me. And I won't reply to the people that show up just to say that Jews are totally safe/privileged in Europe either. Ain't got time for that bull.

[TheDeadFlagBlues]

but I'll humor you. Why do I think your claim is ironic? I think it's ironic because the contemporary movements of Jews from France to Israel are oftentimes framed as refugees moving to Israel. Now, I don't think there's anything particularly wrong with this narrative but I think that the categorization of people between "migrants" and "refugees" necessitates the utmost caution. It's not an easy distinction and I'd argue that it would be far better to be liberal when categorizing people as refugees or migrants.

I don't think I have ever said that Jews from France should be considered refugees, so I'm not sure why you are attacking me on that. You literally brought up this topic yourself.

Well, I actually do think I know why: because you want to be provocative. This is just trolling, and that makes me unwilling to discuss the rest of your post, because I think it's a bit low to try and play that game with me. And I won't reply to the people that show up just to say that Jews are totally safe/privileged in Europe either. Ain't got time for that bull.

?

1. I never claimed that you said that.
2. If you did, I'm not attacking you for saying that.
3. It's not a troll but it was intended to be provocative in the sense that it was supposed to provoke some thought on your end: what is a refugee? How do we classify what a refugee is? What do you think a refugee is? These are questions that should be considered, they haven't been considered in this thread.

If you don't want to talk about anything related to the Aliyah, that's fine by me but my post really isn't about the Aliyah. That was just an example meant to illustrate a point. I could have used something else. I decided to use the Aliyah because it seemed germane to your interests/experience. It can also be inferred that you think that Jews in Europe can be classified as refugees when they return to Israel to escape anti-semitic sentiment, which seems like a perfectly sensible claim to me. Why take offense to this? 

[Famous Mortimer]

I am amazed by how David generally seems to be pretty good and objective in his analysis of events, even being able to put his own views aside, until Jews are brought up and he turns into a crazy person.

What's wrong with being preemptive? That's the opposite of trolling. That's a good thing to do in an argument.

[ingemann]

I am amazed by how David generally seems to be pretty good and objective in his analysis of events, even being able to put his own views aside, until Jews are brought up and he turns into a crazy person.

Well I personal get why David is worried. This kind of immigration will likely have relative little effect on me, I have my own pension savings, and the opportunity to move away from the capital to a rural area when I get old. So many of the worst aspect of this immigration will not hit me. But European Jews, their communities mostly lies in the major cities, if they want to take daily part in their communities, they needto some degree to live in the major cities, often in areas where some of the least integrated Muslims also live. They're among the people who are hit the hardest by this, also the majority begin to not take claim about antisemitism serious anymore, because all of them are now blamed on Muslims. So Jews both have to deal with living among a very anti-Jewish minority group, while at the same time antisemitism among the majority have become hidden, because the majority can no longer see it.

[DavidB.]

The point is that I would have had the exact same opinion regarding the refugee issue if I weren't Jewish. Playing the argument the way you did makes this a discussion about what Jews "ought to think" rather than a discussion about the real refugee issue. And the reality is that Jews have the right to take every position in this debate, just like other people. Just before shabbat, a well-known Jewish Labour member argued that the Netherlands should take in 160,000 refugees, equivalent to Germany's 800,000. He fully has the right to take that position, even though I think it's nonsensical and potentially dangerous. And immediately there are nasty people from the ultra-right who say he takes this position because he's Jewish and he wants to destroy Dutch culture because of WWII, and whatever. On the other hand, if you're more on the right of the debate, like I am, the left will accuse you of being heartless and forgetting your own history et cetera (some people on Atlas are doing this, too). Both arguments are inherently problematic and the problem is that someone's Jewishness is deemed relevant for their position in the debate, while it doesn't necessarily have to be. To the extent that my Jewishness influences my views on the refugee issue (for reasons ingemann very well described - even though I don't see my future in Europe regardless of the refugee issue), I try to make that clear for myself and I try not to let it influence the way I look at the world when I try to be objective (even though I will never be objective - no one is).

(Here I go again, replying to something I probably shouldn't reply to because we won't agree/I'll be trolled/people saying disgusting things about Jews, etc....)

I fully agree that someone from Lahore, Pakistan can be a "real refugee" (and I agree that a debate about this can be legitimate). Tender didn't make this up, the example came from the NYT article. The mocking replies about that might have been inappropriate indeed, at least without knowing the details. I am all for taking in persecuted Pakistani Christians and gays, for instance. However, it is also true that there are many people travelling to Europe who aren't necessarily persecuted or from war-ridden countries. And while I despise the Dutch term gelukszoekers (these days it's even used by serious politicians to indicate that many refugees aren't "real refugees" - it roughly translates to "happiness seekers": we all seek happiness), I don't think the whole world can be welcomed in Europe. You say you don't think 800,000 people going to Germany (what, exactly, is ironic about that?) should be a problem, but how about, for instance, 8,000,000? There are many more people who would love to live in Europe (for very conceivable reasons) who are currently living in countries that are not the nicest places to be. But we can't possibly take them all in and sustain our way of life, while I think a balance should be found: on the one hand we need to help refugees, but on the other hand Europeans have a right to their way of life. The debate should be about the limit. But I get the impression that many US posters don't even understand that there is such a limit.

Regarding the emotional pictures: I surely pity children drowning in the Mediterranean (normal; has a heart; etc.). But many media are deliberately showing these in order to gain support for an open-borders policy, just as pictures with happy refugees using their iPhones are used to gain support for letting no one in. And people believe that stuff. Of course, I think we should implement policies that end the tragedies on the Mediterranean Sea and in Europe, and in this thread, I have posted a proposal for a policy that should do so (but nobody seemed interested in replying to that). But my point is that it simply doesn't make sense to derive the conclusion from these heartbreaking pictures that Europe should open its borders to anyone approaching.

But European Jews, their communities mostly lies in the major cities, if they want to take daily part in their communities, they needto some degree to live in the major cities, often in areas where some of the least integrated Muslims also live. They're among the people who are hit the hardest by this, also the majority begin to not take claim about antisemitism serious anymore, because all of them are now blamed on Muslims. So Jews both have to deal with living among a very anti-Jewish minority group, while at the same time antisemitism among the majority have become hidden, because the majority can no longer see it.

You are so right and I'm genuinely glad that there seem to be people who understand this

[Hnv1]

My god, has this place always been crawling with neo nazis and racists?! Old Atlas really has gone down the tubes it seems.

Labeling isn't helpful either, I think it's legitimate European people have some concern regarding a large torrent of immigration and being wary about its impacts does not make racist by any means. It's not really a black and white situation and naming is far from helpful in conducting a reasonable debate

And this is what we are getting from the Israeli left.

From where in what I wrote did you see my opinion exactly? I happen to be for increased immigration (to Europe, US, and Israel) yet I don't think that's the only solution for the problem as a whole, there is some maximum capacity for immigration. Immigration is needed to be handled wisely and I don't think labeling anyone who has valid concern about what is happening as a Nazi or racist (I'm sure some are but I'm also sure the majority isn't).

p.s if I recall properly you're Libertarian pardon me if I take you moral high ground on what is 'left wing view' with a grain of salt