Europe-Middle East-Africa Refugee Crisis General Thread
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  Europe-Middle East-Africa Refugee Crisis General Thread
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Author Topic: Europe-Middle East-Africa Refugee Crisis General Thread  (Read 126444 times)
ag
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« Reply #225 on: September 02, 2015, 10:41:36 AM »

See, sh*t like this is why Europe should aggressive attempt to resettle refugees from Turkey and Jordan, so that they aren't forced to literally go through the tundra to receive asylum.

Why should only we do that ?

It was the US that stirred up the hornets nests in AfPak, Iraq, Syria and Libya


To begin with, I take grave exception to this calculated racist bullshoot statement.

There is nothing wrong with that statement Did Austria sell weapons to Syrian terrorists? Did their government spearhead the Libyan Blitz? Are they the ones who send drones to kill children in Pakistan and Afghanistan. No, of course not - that is the United States. Austria should not be held responsible for all the imperialist crap the United States pulls.

I never knew that France and UK were part of the United States. When were they annexed?

But, actually, my objection goes a lot deeper than that.
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politicus
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« Reply #226 on: September 02, 2015, 10:42:16 AM »
« Edited: September 02, 2015, 06:38:06 PM by politicus »

See, sh*t like this is why Europe should aggressive attempt to resettle refugees from Turkey and Jordan, so that they aren't forced to literally go through the tundra to receive asylum.

Why should only we do that ?

It was the US that stirred up the hornets nests in AfPak, Iraq, Syria and Libya


To begin with, I take grave exception to this calculated racist bullshoot statement.

What is racist about that? Even if you consider it inaccurate and simplified it has nothing to do with race. Stop abusing that word.
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ag
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« Reply #227 on: September 02, 2015, 10:44:41 AM »

See, sh*t like this is why Europe should aggressive attempt to resettle refugees from Turkey and Jordan, so that they aren't forced to literally go through the tundra to receive asylum.

Why should only we do that ?

It was the US that stirred up the hornets nests in AfPak, Iraq, Syria and Libya


To begin with, I take grave exception to this calculated racist bullshoot statement.

What is racist about that? It is a simple truth - and even if you consider it inaccurate it has nothing to do with race. Stop abusing that word.

I use that word as a mild euphemism for what I think.
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politicus
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« Reply #228 on: September 02, 2015, 10:56:30 AM »
« Edited: September 02, 2015, 06:38:51 PM by politicus »

See, sh*t like this is why Europe should aggressive attempt to resettle refugees from Turkey and Jordan, so that they aren't forced to literally go through the tundra to receive asylum.

Why should only we do that ?

It was the US that stirred up the hornets nests in AfPak, Iraq, Syria and Libya


To begin with, I take grave exception to this calculated racist bullshoot statement.

What is racist about that? Even if you consider it inaccurate it has nothing to do with race. Stop abusing that word.

I use that word as a mild euphemism for what I think.

Huh

In that case better write what you think. If there is one word it is never sensible to abuse in the modern world it is racism.

Even so, what is your problem with this statement? What is inaccurate or untrue about it?
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ag
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« Reply #229 on: September 02, 2015, 10:59:37 AM »


Even so, what is your problem with this statement? What is inaccurate or untrue about it?

Pretty much everything. But, I am afraid, like any other substantive answer I ever attempted here, you will consider a proper response either offensive, or trolling.

BTW, I am impressed, how much substantive discussion took place in this thread since I tried to keep my trolling away.
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ag
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« Reply #230 on: September 02, 2015, 11:04:24 AM »
« Edited: September 02, 2015, 11:06:23 AM by ag »



In that case better write what you think. If there is one word it is never sensible to abuse in the modern world it is racism.


I am not abusing the word. I am using it properly - but, of course, it is a rather inadequate mild synonym for what, in my view, happens to be the case.

I notice, you lost no time reporting me for trolling. Unfortunately, if I said what I think, you would have been reporting me for a personal attack.
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politicus
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« Reply #231 on: September 02, 2015, 11:10:29 AM »


Even so, what is your problem with this statement? What is inaccurate or untrue about it?

Pretty much everything. But, I am afraid, like any other substantive answer I ever attempted here, you will consider a proper response either offensive, or trolling.

BTW, I am impressed, how much substantive discussion took place in this thread since I tried to keep my trolling away.

You never gave much in the way of substantive discussion, just a lot of derails about how Europeans are responsible for everything that is wrong in the world and are the villains of history (as if Asian, Africans, Arabs and Aztec empires never committed horrible acts). The idea that Europeans have a collective guilt (whether they are descended from Saami reindeer herders, Romanian peasants or Gallician fishermen) blocks any sensible approach to this and if that is what you call being substantive discussion then yes, I do consider that either trolling or at least idiosyncratic Individual Politics material, nothing that can form the basis for a fruitful debate.

Agree on the low quality of discussion, but there are some posts that could have formed the basis for a debate of various interesting aspects.
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ag
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« Reply #232 on: September 02, 2015, 11:28:43 AM »

I have never spoken about "collective guilt": a concept, that is totally abhorrent to me. What I do not like is individual confidence that "this can never happen to me".

Anyway, do not let my sniping interfere. Please, do something to elevate the quality of the conversation: I am all eyes and ears.
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Helsinkian
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« Reply #233 on: September 02, 2015, 11:51:59 AM »

Why do Saudi-Arabia, UAE or Iran not take in asylum seekers from Iraq and Syria? Why should it be Europe's responsibility to settle them?
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Middle-aged Europe
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« Reply #234 on: September 02, 2015, 12:01:37 PM »

Why do Saudi-Arabia, UAE or Iran not take in asylum seekers from Iraq and Syria? Why should it be Europe's responsibility to settle them?

Because not everybody should act like an asshole?
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Helsinkian
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« Reply #235 on: September 02, 2015, 12:04:50 PM »

Why do Saudi-Arabia, UAE or Iran not take in asylum seekers from Iraq and Syria? Why should it be Europe's responsibility to settle them?

Because not everybody should act like an asshole?

So having borders now means that one is an asshole?
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Beezer
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« Reply #236 on: September 02, 2015, 12:16:00 PM »

I don't know what the German government has been telling Syrians but jeez, why the hell does no one apply for asylum in Austria anymore? These people are really in for a rude awakening when they arrive in some decrepit former DIY-store somewhere in the middle of nowhere (aka east Germany).
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TheDeadFlagBlues
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« Reply #237 on: September 02, 2015, 12:57:35 PM »

Why do Saudi-Arabia, UAE or Iran not take in asylum seekers from Iraq and Syria? Why should it be Europe's responsibility to settle them?

Why do people who tout the superiority of "Western values" and the institutions of liberal democracy want migrants to take refuge within the borders of authoritarian regimes?
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Helsinkian
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« Reply #238 on: September 02, 2015, 03:16:58 PM »
« Edited: September 02, 2015, 03:25:13 PM by Helsinkian »

Why do Saudi-Arabia, UAE or Iran not take in asylum seekers from Iraq and Syria? Why should it be Europe's responsibility to settle them?

Why do people who tout the superiority of "Western values" and the institutions of liberal democracy want migrants to take refuge within the borders of authoritarian regimes?

They are countries which have a culture much closer to the culture of the Syrians and Iraqis, thereby making it easier for them to integrate (Shias to Iran, Sunnis to the other Gulf countries).

Authoritarian regimes are what they are used to. By moving from one authoritarian state to another, they will avoid experiencing a culture shock.
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ag
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« Reply #239 on: September 02, 2015, 03:32:55 PM »

Why do Saudi-Arabia, UAE or Iran not take in asylum seekers from Iraq and Syria? Why should it be Europe's responsibility to settle them?

Why do people who tout the superiority of "Western values" and the institutions of liberal democracy want migrants to take refuge within the borders of authoritarian regimes?

They are countries which have a culture much closer to the culture of the Syrians and Iraqis, thereby making it easier for them to integrate (Shias to Iran, Sunnis to the other Gulf countries).

Authoritarian regimes are what they are used to. By moving from one authoritarian state to another, they will avoid experiencing a culture shock.

I will remind you of this comment when Russians invade.
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Helsinkian
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« Reply #240 on: September 02, 2015, 03:45:20 PM »
« Edited: September 02, 2015, 03:47:11 PM by Helsinkian »

Why do Saudi-Arabia, UAE or Iran not take in asylum seekers from Iraq and Syria? Why should it be Europe's responsibility to settle them?

Why do people who tout the superiority of "Western values" and the institutions of liberal democracy want migrants to take refuge within the borders of authoritarian regimes?

They are countries which have a culture much closer to the culture of the Syrians and Iraqis, thereby making it easier for them to integrate (Shias to Iran, Sunnis to the other Gulf countries).

Authoritarian regimes are what they are used to. By moving from one authoritarian state to another, they will avoid experiencing a culture shock.

I will remind you of this comment when Russians invade.

I am a military reservist. If Russia were to attack, I would fight for my country, not flee to other countries. And that's exactly what the young men of Syria and Iraq ought to be doing: supporting their government by enlisting to fight against the monster that is ISIS, not fleeing the country.

Over two thirds of the asylum seekers coming to Finland are men of military age. I wonder what they would do in the scenario you describe. Since they were not willing to fight for their own country, I doubt they would fight for this country either. They are happy to claim the social welfare paid to them by the Finnish state, but if Russia were to attack, they would be on the first ship to Stockholm.
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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #241 on: September 02, 2015, 04:10:33 PM »

ITT: Middle class White people living in liberal democracies lecturing poor nonwhite people living in authoritarian regimes on what they should do.
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ingemann
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« Reply #242 on: September 02, 2015, 04:14:30 PM »

ITT: Middle class White people living in liberal democracies lecturing poor nonwhite people living in authoritarian regimes on what they should do.

They're free to live like they want... Elsewhere.
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ag
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« Reply #243 on: September 02, 2015, 05:17:28 PM »

Why do Saudi-Arabia, UAE or Iran not take in asylum seekers from Iraq and Syria? Why should it be Europe's responsibility to settle them?

Why do people who tout the superiority of "Western values" and the institutions of liberal democracy want migrants to take refuge within the borders of authoritarian regimes?

They are countries which have a culture much closer to the culture of the Syrians and Iraqis, thereby making it easier for them to integrate (Shias to Iran, Sunnis to the other Gulf countries).

Authoritarian regimes are what they are used to. By moving from one authoritarian state to another, they will avoid experiencing a culture shock.

I will remind you of this comment when Russians invade.

I am a military reservist. If Russia were to attack, I would fight for my country, not flee to other countries.

Alas, the old Marshall is dead. You might not have an equal command next time.
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Mr. Morden
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« Reply #244 on: September 02, 2015, 06:17:14 PM »

It was the US that stirred up the hornets nests in AfPak, Iraq, Syria and Libya and brought misery and despair to people's lives there so that they had to flee.

Good point.  There was no war in Syria, Libya, Afghanistan, etc. before the US, UK, France, and other Western countries got militarily involved.  Oh wait...
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Famous Mortimer
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« Reply #245 on: September 02, 2015, 06:46:22 PM »

Turkey seems like the ideal place to put these people. A middle group between Europe and their original homelands geographically, economically, and culturally. Additionally, Turkey is far more responsible for stirring up s in Syria than even the US.
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Storebought
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« Reply #246 on: September 02, 2015, 07:39:59 PM »
« Edited: September 02, 2015, 07:43:39 PM by Storebought »

Turkey seems like the ideal place to put these people. A middle group between Europe and their original homelands geographically, economically, and culturally. Additionally, Turkey is far more responsible for stirring up s in Syria than even the US.

Turkey has almost two million Syrian refugees already.
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TheDeadFlagBlues
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« Reply #247 on: September 02, 2015, 08:09:52 PM »
« Edited: September 02, 2015, 08:22:09 PM by TheDeadFlagBlues »

Why do Saudi-Arabia, UAE or Iran not take in asylum seekers from Iraq and Syria? Why should it be Europe's responsibility to settle them?

Why do people who tout the superiority of "Western values" and the institutions of liberal democracy want migrants to take refuge within the borders of authoritarian regimes?

They are countries which have a culture much closer to the culture of the Syrians and Iraqis, thereby making it easier for them to integrate (Shias to Iran, Sunnis to the other Gulf countries).

Authoritarian regimes are what they are used to. By moving from one authoritarian state to another, they will avoid experiencing a culture shock.

Insightful point! Ashkenazi Jews from Byelorussia had no experience with democracy. Naturally, when they fled the pogroms, they came to the shores of New York City and started weeping, asking themselves "what is democracy? i can't comprehend this," before establishing the monarchy of New York Oblast.

Look, if you want migrants to die in the Mediterranean, just say it aloud. There's no need for the intellectual jujitsu where you avoid saying the immoral thing in favor of saying slightly less immoral things. We know what you're getting at.
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Fmr President & Senator Polnut
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« Reply #248 on: September 02, 2015, 08:33:28 PM »

This entire thread is a testimony that re-enforces that I said the moment I saw that poor little boy on a beach in Turkey. We're the worst thing to happen to our planet.

The paranoia about settling people fleeing a war zone... what the hell is wrong with you people? Human beings being treated like a piece of ugly heirloom furniture "No, I don't want it!" "Wait, you liked her more, you take it!".

I'm seriously asking you. There should be an international agreement on this issue that includes all countries in the region and all developed economies. Noting that part of the reason why there are issues about re-settling in the Middle East is due to the high risk of persecution and continued attacks. Frankly, reading some of these cold and spiteful comments, I wonder if they should even bother.

But of course, beware the browns right? No matter where they are?
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politicus
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« Reply #249 on: September 02, 2015, 09:01:18 PM »

But of course, beware the browns right? No matter where they are?

However much you guys like to make this about race it is not the colour of their skin that is the problem, and it is not as simple as "lets just help those in need". Refugee situations can often be boiled down to this, but this one can't. And there have been several attempts to explain why. Ignoring them and just posting a moral reprimand is pointless.

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