Europe-Middle East-Africa Refugee Crisis General Thread
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  Europe-Middle East-Africa Refugee Crisis General Thread
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Author Topic: Europe-Middle East-Africa Refugee Crisis General Thread  (Read 126449 times)
ag
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« Reply #250 on: September 02, 2015, 09:43:20 PM »
« edited: September 02, 2015, 10:26:00 PM by ag »

But of course, beware the browns right? No matter where they are?

However much you guys like to make this about race it is not the colour of their skin that is the problem, and it is not as simple as "lets just help those in need". Refugee situations can often be boiled down to this, but this one can't. And there have been several attempts to explain why. Ignoring them and just posting a moral reprimand is pointless.



just to be clear: I do not care in the least if it is about color of the skin or "culture". As far as I am concerned, the two approaches are morally and practically indistinguishable. The only distinction that matters, is the one between cannibals, and non non-cannibals. And, unfortunately, we have far too many cannibals in this thread.
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TheDeadFlagBlues
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« Reply #251 on: September 02, 2015, 10:24:08 PM »
« Edited: September 02, 2015, 10:27:22 PM by TheDeadFlagBlues »

Does it really matter why people refuse to treat other people with respect and dignity? When making moral or ethical judgments, one does not need to care about the motivations of other actors. In a vacuum, we'd agree that it would be quite immoral for hypothetical society X to allow refugees to drown or to be without shelter and malnourished in poorly-maintained camps in poorer/more authoritarian society Y. This really shouldn't be controversial.

It's only controversial because many Europeans, more so in some countries than others, are prejudiced. There are solutions that could be proposed with this in mind but I'd suggest that there's no escaping the fact that this is a fundamentally moral issue. It's not a question of economics or logistics. If refugees were spread between countries in a fair manner, it would pose a light burden for the continent.

If this can't be agreed upon, there's no point in continuing this discussion. The alternatives proposed by some posters in this thread are a bit ridiculous. No, MENA nations are not more equipped than France or the UK to handle migrants. They're poorer, they're not all that culturally similar and they're authoritarian. This burden cannot be transferred to Egypt or to Saudi Arabia or to the UAE. That's wish fulfillment. Furthermore, it's deeply immoral wish fulfillment because I'm well-aware that people on this forum know about the manner in which the Gulf States treat migrant workers.

tl;dr if there's going to be a debate about this crisis, it has to be about ethics and morality. at the end of the day, we don't disagree about the political constraints faced by european governments...
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Storebought
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« Reply #252 on: September 02, 2015, 10:52:26 PM »
« Edited: September 02, 2015, 11:05:31 PM by Storebought »

I agree that it would be lot more honest of the European posters to just state outright that they would prefer a fully militarized border control system like Russia's whose only task is to keep migrants out, however enforced, whatever may happen to them. But the issue is that none of the countries they live in (I mean specifically the wealthy northern nations of the EU) are willing to pay for, say, the Italian Navy to function as a Mediterranean-wide coast guard to return migrants to the point from which they've disembarked (or, to extend the Russia metaphor, to shoot the boats before they land). Any talk of humanitarianism on their part is just obfuscation.
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Simfan34
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« Reply #253 on: September 02, 2015, 11:03:31 PM »

It is hard for many, after seeing a constant litany of portrayals of them as attackers and terrorists, to simply see Arabs and Middle Easterners in general as victims.
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Storebought
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« Reply #254 on: September 02, 2015, 11:06:39 PM »

It is hard for many, after seeing a constant litany of portrayals of them as attackers and terrorists, to simply see Arabs and Middle Easterners in general as victims.

Africans are routinely depicted as impoverished victims in western media, but they still want them out, too.
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Fmr President & Senator Polnut
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« Reply #255 on: September 02, 2015, 11:20:54 PM »

But of course, beware the browns right? No matter where they are?

However much you guys like to make this about race it is not the colour of their skin that is the problem, and it is not as simple as "lets just help those in need". Refugee situations can often be boiled down to this, but this one can't. And there have been several attempts to explain why. Ignoring them and just posting a moral reprimand is pointless.



OK then, instead of acting like the victims in this issue. What's your solution? Aside from can't x (read as, anywhere but here) take them?
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dead0man
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« Reply #256 on: September 03, 2015, 05:30:21 AM »

Some of you people are disgusting.  Some people don't want millions of more people in their countries, so their automatically racists?  What kind of bullspit is that?  It's an issue that can be discussed, debated, compromised on, but you guys don't want that, you want to show how much better you are.  Great job poisoning the well.
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Beezer
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« Reply #257 on: September 03, 2015, 05:39:10 AM »

Indeed. Some folks here think that the issue is a simple and straightforward "do you have a heart or not" matter. Considering that this wave of refugees will add hundreds of thousands of people (if not even more) from a cultural background that has had a pretty poor track record of integrating into European society to the continent's population, it's quite obvious that there is more to the story.
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Tender Branson
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« Reply #258 on: September 03, 2015, 06:30:20 AM »

The situation in Hungary is pretty bizarre today:

Apparently, the police unblocked the railway station in Budapest in the morning and let 300 migrants board a train.

The migrants thought that the train would go to Vienna, but instead it was re-routed next to a city with a migrant camp where police was waiting to pick up the migrants from the train and transport them there by bus.

Now the train is there, people refuse to get out and some are just sitting on the railway tracks, screaming and protesting against being taken to the camps ...
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Middle-aged Europe
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« Reply #259 on: September 03, 2015, 06:52:49 AM »

As it happens, I'm getting a lot of anti-immigration phone calls and e-mails at my workplace lately. And my experience is that those are not very nice people. I remember that one caller who argued - similarly to Seinfeld here - that burning down refugee homes are an acceptable form of civil disobedience. And then there was this letter last week which ended with threats, including some rather detailed description of torture and mutilation.

Said letter is in the hands of the police now, but the point being is: There are so many "indigenous" people here who can only be described as human garbage who shouldn't live here let alone be citizens, what does it matter to let hundreds of thousands of Muslims in? They can only raise the quality of our culture, not lower it.
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Fmr President & Senator Polnut
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« Reply #260 on: September 03, 2015, 06:55:28 AM »

Some of you people are disgusting.  Some people don't want millions of more people in their countries, so their automatically racists?  What kind of bullspit is that?  It's an issue that can be discussed, debated, compromised on, but you guys don't want that, you want to show how much better you are.  Great job poisoning the well.

Oh please. This, of course, isn't simple. 

my 'Browns' comment was unnecessary - so I'll apologise for it. But there should be consideration of people who are escaping abominable situations that we cannot fathom. We dont understand that desperation, we don't know what kind of risks we'd be prepared to take.

States need to ensure their sovereignty but that's the point. Hence my question - these are humanitarian crises, what do we do? Other than say they're not our problem, despite the policy decisions taken in many of our countries, including mine, helped lead to this.
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #261 on: September 03, 2015, 07:10:02 AM »

The position of the Cameron government on this has been predictably loathsome. And pathetic.
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dead0man
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« Reply #262 on: September 03, 2015, 07:24:59 AM »

Some of you people are disgusting.  Some people don't want millions of more people in their countries, so their automatically racists?  What kind of bullspit is that?  It's an issue that can be discussed, debated, compromised on, but you guys don't want that, you want to show how much better you are.  Great job poisoning the well.

Oh please. This, of course, isn't simple. 

my 'Browns' comment was unnecessary - so I'll apologise for it. But there should be consideration of people who are escaping abominable situations that we cannot fathom. We dont understand that desperation, we don't know what kind of risks we'd be prepared to take.

States need to ensure their sovereignty but that's the point. Hence my question - these are humanitarian crises, what do we do? Other than say they're not our problem, despite the policy decisions taken in many of our countries, including mine, helped lead to this.
We can talk about it, but it's a lot harder to do when one side is calling EVERYbody on the other side racists.  It just shows some of you don't really want to talk about it.
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ag
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« Reply #263 on: September 03, 2015, 07:25:58 AM »

Some of you people are disgusting. 

The disgust is mutual.
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Beezer
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« Reply #264 on: September 03, 2015, 08:21:39 AM »
« Edited: September 03, 2015, 08:23:38 AM by Beezer »

Said letter is in the hands of the police now, but the point being is: There are so many "indigenous" people here who can only be described as human garbage who shouldn't live here let alone be citizens, what does it matter to let hundreds of thousands of Muslims in? They can only raise the quality of our culture, not lower it.

Ridiculous argument. So just because every European country has some far right a-holes in it, let's bring in boatloads of people whose values are completely alien to our liberal ones and more or less in line with the prevailing cultural sentiments of the far right (stone the gays, keep women at home)? I will never for the life of me understand why the German Greens have such a hard on for immigration from the Muslim world. You pretty much couldn't find a group of people whose views differ more substantially from those on the libertarian left.

Anyway, some pics from Hungary:





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Fmr President & Senator Polnut
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« Reply #265 on: September 03, 2015, 08:28:13 AM »

Some of you people are disgusting.  Some people don't want millions of more people in their countries, so their automatically racists?  What kind of bullspit is that?  It's an issue that can be discussed, debated, compromised on, but you guys don't want that, you want to show how much better you are.  Great job poisoning the well.

Oh please. This, of course, isn't simple. 

my 'Browns' comment was unnecessary - so I'll apologise for it. But there should be consideration of people who are escaping abominable situations that we cannot fathom. We dont understand that desperation, we don't know what kind of risks we'd be prepared to take.

States need to ensure their sovereignty but that's the point. Hence my question - these are humanitarian crises, what do we do? Other than say they're not our problem, despite the policy decisions taken in many of our countries, including mine, helped lead to this.
We can talk about it, but it's a lot harder to do when one side is calling EVERYbody on the other side racists.  It just shows some of you don't really want to talk about it.

I'm happy to talk about it. I exist because countries looked after my grandmother and her family fled persecution and the prelude to war. I'm happy to talk, but when people give equal time to the context and what is causing this.bI never said that this is Europe's problem to solve, it's all of ours.

The argument seems driven by the dehumanisation of people, they are problems, like an invasive pest species. Not people fleeing conditions, again, that we can't imagine. It's much easier to have discussions when problems are reduced to that level.
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DavidB.
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« Reply #266 on: September 03, 2015, 08:33:30 AM »
« Edited: September 03, 2015, 09:59:23 AM by DavidB. »

Insightful point! Ashkenazi Jews from Byelorussia had no experience with democracy. Naturally, when they fled the pogroms, they came to the shores of New York City and started weeping, asking themselves "what is democracy? i can't comprehend this," before establishing the monarchy of New York Oblast.
People implicitly claiming that Ashkenazi Jews who fled the pogroms more than a century ago had just the same culture as Syrian Sunni Muslims now Roll Eyes Only on Atlas.

Although I actually agree that the 'they don't have any experience with democracy' argument doesn't make sense.

No, MENA nations are not more equipped than France or the UK to handle migrants. They're poorer, they're not all that culturally similar and they're authoritarian. This burden cannot be transferred to Egypt or to Saudi Arabia or to the UAE. That's wish fulfillment. Furthermore, it's deeply immoral wish fulfillment because I'm well-aware that people on this forum know about the manner in which the Gulf States treat migrant workers.
Since when do people have a right to live in democracies? These people are (mostly) no political refugees, they are war refugees. Why would the authoritarian character of some states diminish their capacities to deal with migrants from the same region? By the way, it's not as if these people are used to living in a perfect democracy like Iceland or Finland in the first place.

(To be sure, the fact that Gulf States would treat migrants very badly is obviously an argument for not having too much faith in them, and I agree that Egypt shouldn't be burdened with this problem too much, considering that they have a problem with poverty, overpopulation and political instability even now.)
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ag
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« Reply #267 on: September 03, 2015, 09:14:06 AM »

Insightful point! Ashkenazi Jews from Byelorussia had no experience with democracy. Naturally, when they fled the pogroms, they came to the shores of New York City and started weeping, asking themselves "what is democracy? i can't comprehend this," before establishing the monarchy of New York Oblast.
People implicitly claiming that Ashkenazi Jews who fled the pogroms more than a century ago had just the same culture as Syrian Sunni Muslims now Roll Eyes


The implicit claim is only in your mind: and says more about you, than about anything else.

Anyway, I am very happy that you managed to acquire the proper Aryan culture. I am sure you will look spiffy in that Unterhauptfuhrer uniform when on Einsatzkommando duty in the East.
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afleitch
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« Reply #268 on: September 03, 2015, 10:13:29 AM »

I’ve stayed out of this thread for a while. And I fully expect to be berated for this. My sympathy for the plight of the asylum seekers is limited a little not by what is happening (which is genuinely heartbreaking) but why it’s happening.

 ‘Fleeing’ from safe Turkey to safe Greece, and essentially hopping from state to state within the EU until they get to a preferred nation (Germany/France) at that point becomes less of a flight driven by fears for safety and the need for asylum and more of an economic decision (particularly in the case of men taking that route by themselves) I’m not saying wanting to go to a nation because the housing might be better, the financial support better, the people better, an ‘expat’ culture, chance of a job etc is wrong; it’s actually common sense but it’s a conscious decision. It can never be untangled from the events that drove them away from their homeland, but those events too are combinations of war and want.

Plans to divide up those fleeing amongst EU member states won’t matter, because they will just leave to go to whatever country they want to go if they can cross the borders. That might be why it's difficult to agree.

Having said that, the UK should be taking their fair share, simply because we do have border control and once here, they can be adequately settled and registered, so that they are not homeless, stateless or lost to authorities and welfare providers.
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Хahar 🤔
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« Reply #269 on: September 03, 2015, 10:59:36 AM »

Insightful point! Ashkenazi Jews from Byelorussia had no experience with democracy. Naturally, when they fled the pogroms, they came to the shores of New York City and started weeping, asking themselves "what is democracy? i can't comprehend this," before establishing the monarchy of New York Oblast.

People implicitly claiming that Ashkenazi Jews who fled the pogroms more than a century ago had just the same culture as Syrian Sunni Muslims now Roll Eyes

What is the difference? This is a serious question.
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DavidB.
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« Reply #270 on: September 03, 2015, 11:10:15 AM »

I don't know why you're talking to me, ag, but you're uncalled for.

Insightful point! Ashkenazi Jews from Byelorussia had no experience with democracy. Naturally, when they fled the pogroms, they came to the shores of New York City and started weeping, asking themselves "what is democracy? i can't comprehend this," before establishing the monarchy of New York Oblast.

People implicitly claiming that Ashkenazi Jews who fled the pogroms more than a century ago had just the same culture as Syrian Sunni Muslims now Roll Eyes

What is the difference? This is a serious question.
Well, both groups had no real experience with democracy, but that's where the comparison ends. Most Syrian refugees had been a majority within their own country (even though Sunnis didn't/don't control the country politically) and will now, as refugees, have to accomodate to the situation in an entirely different country where they won't be the group that's socially dominant (of course, there are also non-Sunni refugees, but the vast majority are). Ashkenazi Jews, on the other hand, were already a minority used to living in countries where they were not socially dominant.

And then there's the anti-Westernness in general that many (but of course not all) Muslim immigrants have, an attitude Ashkenazi Jews never seemed to have (and which, in the 21st century, isn't the same as in the late 19th century anyway) - on the contrary, that's why most Ashkenazi Jews assimilated. Which is, in my opinion, not something good at all - I'm not saying people should assimilate, they have the absolute right not to, if they don't wish to do so. But the fact that many refugees will probably not assimilate will bring about very different consequences for societies than immigration of Ashkenazi Jews brought about, regardless of one's opinion on assimilation (mine not being too positive).
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politicus
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« Reply #271 on: September 03, 2015, 11:11:50 AM »
« Edited: September 03, 2015, 11:35:35 AM by politicus »

Plans to divide up those fleeing amongst EU member states won’t matter, because they will just leave to go to whatever country they want to go if they can cross the borders. That might be why it's difficult to agree.

That is only true if the current integration system keeps being the norm. If we see a continued wave there will be a pressure towards establishing more permanent refugee camps to deter economic migrants and to keep up a realistic possibility of repatriation if conflicts end. In this case there will be pressure to establish them in countries with lower costs - and that would primarily be in Eastern Europe.

It all depends on whether the "asylum seeker - refugee status - integration - possibility of acquiring citizenship" chain will be upheld - and I doubt that.

I agree the country hopping is a major factor in delegitimizing refugees in the eyes of the general European public. It is too calculated and organized and collides with our mental image of a "real refugee". I have tried earlier in the thread to describe the switch from the classical political refugee with a (comparatively) "elite" background to the modern version of a 1890s Eastern or Southern European "flight to America"  to escape a combination of poverty, war and oppression, but you may have more luck to integrate this aspect in the discussion - it tends to be ignored, but is important. Our concept of what a refugee is is simply dated and that forces us to rethink the whole international refugee system.

Ideally we need resettlement areas and they are not likely to be found in densely populated Europe. We need internationally to negotiate about whether some countries would be willing to resettle refugees, build new towns for them etc. if the rich countries paid for it and gave trade concessions etc. Separate hosting and payment is an important key to opening this up.

Europe should take the most vulnerable refugees: Disabled people, lone women with children, gays, torture victims, people in need of medical treatment, elderly in need of care etc. We could also take some refugees with attractive skills as labour migrants. But we need to find another solution for the masses. Migration of large amounts of young, unskilled men from Middle Eastern and African countries will always be seen as a threat. There are no jobs for them and we fear crime, harassment and even terror. Some of that fear is irrational, but some is also based on previous experiences.

Europe is mostly "we wanna help, but not in my backyard" at this point, you can deplore that if you like, but it is a reality and I think we should use the "we wanna help" aspect constructively instead of focusing exclusively on discussing the moral unacceptability of the NIMBY-aspect. There is a potential for an international solution and the numbers are not unmanageable if spread across the globe according to a mix between BNP and population - incl. growth economies in Asia. There needs to be a lot more global coordination on this and the EU could take the initiative, and the US could back it up.
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ag
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« Reply #272 on: September 03, 2015, 12:20:15 PM »
« Edited: September 04, 2015, 04:44:58 PM by ag »

Plans to divide up those fleeing amongst EU member states won’t matter, because they will just leave to go to whatever country they want to go if they can cross the borders. That might be why it's difficult to agree.

That is only true if the current integration system keeps being the norm. If we see a continued wave there will be a pressure towards establishing more permanent refugee camps to deter economic migrants and to keep up a realistic possibility of repatriation if conflicts end. In this case there will be pressure to establish them in countries with lower costs - and that would primarily be in Eastern Europe.

It all depends on whether the "asylum seeker - refugee status - integration - possibility of acquiring citizenship" chain will be upheld - and I doubt that.

I agree the country hopping is a major factor in delegitimizing refugees in the eyes of the general European public. It is too calculated and organized and collides with our mental image of a "real refugee". I have tried earlier in the thread to describe the switch from the classical political refugee with a (comparatively) "elite" background to the modern version of a 1890s Eastern or Southern European "flight to America"  to escape a combination of poverty, war and oppression, but you may have more luck to integrate this aspect in the discussion - it tends to be ignored, but is important. Our concept of what a refugee is is simply dated and that forces us to rethink the whole international refugee system.

Ideally we need resettlement areas and they are not likely to be found in densely populated Europe. We need internationally to negotiate about whether some countries would be willing to resettle refugees, build new towns for them etc. if the rich countries paid for it and gave trade concessions etc. Separate hosting and payment is an important key to opening this up.


At this point, I do not even have to comment. I simply call on everybody here to carefully read what  our Danish friend wrote and make their own conclusions. Saying more would be a personal attack, and I have been reported far too many times recently.
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Helsinkian
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« Reply #273 on: September 03, 2015, 01:06:38 PM »
« Edited: September 03, 2015, 02:02:13 PM by Helsinkian »

ITT: Middle class White people living in liberal democracies lecturing poor nonwhite people living in authoritarian regimes on what they should do.

Today I read an interview of a 21 year old Iraqi asylum seeker in a Finnish newspaper. He said that he had paid 11,000 euros (that's 12,245 dollars, for the American readers) for his trip from Baghdad to Finland. If you think poor Iraqis can afford to spend that kind of money, you're fooling yourself. Many of these people are middle-class themselves; some are upper middle-class. The truly poor Syrians and Iraqis cannot afford to leave the country let alone travel to Europe.

For the same amount of money that the European states use for the upkeep of a single asylum seeker, we could vastly improve the lives of 10-20 more needy Syrians and Iraqis living in the camps in neighbouring countries or displaced inside their own country. But the Left does not want that, because the Left has its own agenda in advancing third world immigration into Europe: getting more voters for the Socialist parties, now that the native Europeans are growing tired of Socialism. I believe you admitted this in an earlier thread, so this is not merely a conspiracy theory.
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DavidB.
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« Reply #274 on: September 03, 2015, 02:43:27 PM »

Meanwhile, White House spokesman Josh Earnest stated that Europe needs to solve the refugee problem itself. The US "will be glad to help Europe by giving advise" but will not take in refugees: "Europe has the capacity to solve the problem itself." He also said that European politicians shouldn't forget "that this is about human beings".

I don't think the US is under the obligation to take in refugees, but if they don't, at least I'd like the White House to refrain from taking the moral highground.
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